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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Beenblake wrote:

Quote:
The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15).

The Holy Spirit is God's presence. By this, the Holy Spirit is God's wisdom. The Holy Spirit knows all things. Many people think that Proverbs chapter 8 is speaking about Jesus. Rather, I believe this passage is speaking about the Holy Spirit. The passage personifies wisdom. However, in doing so, it does not use the pronoun "he" rather it uses the pronoun "she." I believe that the Holy Spirit is the daughter of God, and the use of "she" in this passage clearly establishes this. However, the Holy Spirit has been referenced as "He" in the new testament. What about that? The Holy Spirit is God. And so, it is clear that we should call the Holy Spirit "He" in order to establish this.

Proverbs 1:20-23
20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

The above scripture clearly establishes that Wisdom is a "she." One of the things I think is interesting is how Wisdom is described as calling out asking people to turn at her reproof. This to me is the exact description of the Holy Spirit convicting a person. It then says "I will pour my spirit unto you." If we listen to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and become saved, the Holy Spirit then fills us.

Proverbs 2:10-12
10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; 11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: 12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;

It says, "when wisdom entereth into thine heart." The Holy Spirit fills our heart, and when it does, we are filled with joy as described above.

Proverbs 7:1-4
1 Follow my advice, my son; always treasure my commands. 2 Obey them and live! Guard my teachings as your most precious possession. 3 Tie them on your fingers as a reminder. Write them deep within your heart. 4 Love wisdom like a sister; make insight a beloved member of your family.

Many times in proverbs, it begins the conversation saying "my son". Whoever is speaking in these passages, they are obviously speaking to "my son." Jesus Christ was the son of God, and the son of Solomon. Whether it is God speaking, or King Solomon speaking, it is clear that the proverbs is speaking to Jesus. The proverbs is speaking about Wisdom to Jesus. The above scripture clearly tells the son to "Love wisdom like a sister." If Wisdom is the Holy Spirit, then it is clear that the Holy Spirit is the sister of Jesus.

Proverbs 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man."

The Holy Spirit is calling to the sons of man that they may be convicted of thier sins and may turn to the son of God.

Proverbs 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Holy Spirit has been called the Spirit of truth. Wisdom, according to the scripture above, speaks truth. Notice the difference here. Jesus said He was the truth. However, the Holy Spirit speaks to the truth.


Proverbs 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:



Is not the parallel between these two scriptures clearly apparent?

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death

Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Jesus died for our sins. The Holy Spirit calls us to repentence. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins. And so, when we reject this calling, and do not turn to Christ and accept His free gift of grace, we are condemned to eteral death.


Based upon all this, is it any wonder that......

The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15).





I agree with you, Proverbs 8 and Wisdom is the personification of the Holy Spirit and not Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not the (daughter) as you suggested but is the "woman" that we find in Scripture...

Genesis 3:15

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;...

Gal 4:

26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/4/5 16:46Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Beenblake wrote:

Quote:
26

On the surface it does appear that Jesus has in fact a seperate will from the Father. There are several other scriptures that confirm this as well. (John 5:30; 6:38)

Jesus is God and man. The will Jesus is spoken of as shown in Luke 22:24 is not one of divine volition but of earthly volition designated by the flesh. This is made clear by John 5:30.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Notice that the scripture says, "I can of mine own self do nothing."

If Jesus is indeed God, and one of the three in the GodHead, then He is completely divine in all ways and He is complete in all ways. If a person says, "Jesus needs the father" then Jesus is not in fact complete because He needs the father.

In the above scripture however, Jesus says that He can of His own self do nothing. This obviously establishes that Jesus, apart from God as an independent self, can do nothing. This suggests that apart from God, Jesus is just flesh.

And so, the will that Jesus is speaking when He says, "not mine own will" is referring to the will designated to Him by His flesh, and not the divine will of God.

In John 1:13, "nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man." The greek word used here is the same greek word used in Luke 22:43. This indicates that the flesh has a will and that man has a will.

In Eph 2:3, the same greek word is used, except it is translated "desire." The verse says, "the desires of the flesh and of the mind...". Are the will of the flesh and of the mind the same will, or seperate? I don't know.

The point of this is to establish that the flesh has a will independent of the spirit. The conflict of these two is problematic for us. Paul speaks about this in Galatians:

Galatians 5:17 (KJSV)
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Jesus lived in the flesh and thus was tempted in all ways just as we are tempted. The conflict of the will of the flesh and the will of God existed in Him. This was definitely highlighted by the experience at Gethsemane. We struggle with this everyday.



This is very good...Paul taught this in Romans 7 and 8...

Romans 7

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Romans 8

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Heb. 5:6 As He also says in another place:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;
7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.


Hebrews 9:

13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Jesus overcame the flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit...

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/4/5 17:00Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Ron (the greater) wrote:

Quote:
and the Light shines in the darkness

John now switches tenses from the ‘imperfect’ to the ‘present’. John sometimes uses these present tenses in his vivid narratives. They give an immediate sense to the story, but they can also have other implications. John is not just thinking about the event of the incarnation, but of the continuing process right up to the present moment; the Light is still shining in the darkness.

John will move on shortly to speak of the witness of John Baptist, but at this stage he has in mind the continuing witness of the Light. John was a lamp; "He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. (Joh 5:35-36 NASB)
The lamp was extinguished but the light shines on. There is nowhere so dark that the Light is not still shining there. In that very darkness the Light still shines.


and the darkness has not overcome it.

This is the way the ESV and a few other versions translates this verse. The KJV has ‘the darkness comprehended it not’. The word can mean ‘apprehend’ but also in the way a criminal might be apprehended. The word was one used of a cat pinning down a mouse. The impression is that the ‘darkness’ attempted to hold down the light, but could not. This impression is carried through again in John’s changing tenses. ‘The Light is still shining in the darkness and the darkness did not extinguish it’.



This is a wonderful thought brought to clarity by you...

Also

Likewise with this thought...



Quote:
which lighteth every man, coming into the world.

Again John switches the tenses. This is not saying that at the moment of everyman’s entry into the world he is illuminated, but that every man is illuminated by the Light that is coming into the world. There is no man or woman who will not, in some measure, be illuminated by that Light which came into the world. The Light, who always was, is coming into the world. These are amazing statements which familiarity can easily rob us of. The Word, who is the unchanging God is ‘moving’, coming into the world. The Creator has constantly ‘entered’ His creation by the Light, just as the sun’s rays have penetrated into our world, but John is moving towards his goal here. He is about to make a carefully prepared statement of breathtaking audacity; a statement that would be an offence to Greek and Hebrew philosophy alike, but he prepares his ground first...



In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/4/5 17:08Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote on page 23...

Quote:
Quote: I said, "We are born again of the Spirit, yet not without the use of means, but by the Word of God. The word is the beggeting principle itself, but only that by which it works: the vehicle of the mysterious germinating power Of Christ in you the hope of Glory.




This is very good Brother...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/4/6 11:18Profile









 Re: For 'HIS' sake Only.

Brother Jeff, May I just ask two things ?

In this quote from you: "I agree with you, Proverbs 8 and Wisdom is the personification of the Holy Spirit and not Jesus."

This was written Pre-Incarnation, so are we not "splitting" Elohim, Who operated as ONE God, by saying what you've said above ?


Second request: Could you read the 'first' post on this page and make comment, IF you feel Led.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7346&forum=36&start=20&24

Blessings in HIM.
me

 2006/4/6 18:59
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sis asked:

Quote:
In this quote from you: "I agree with you, Proverbs 8 and Wisdom is the personification of the Holy Spirit and not Jesus."

This was written Pre-Incarnation, so are we not "splitting" Elohim, Who operated as ONE God, by saying what you've said above ?



I believe that Melchizedeck is Christ and that He is the only One who could ever occupy and operate as the High Priest of God. No other man could ever share in the order of Melchizedeck.

I authored a thread a long time ago concerning Melchizedeck.

Secondly, I teach that all the OT saints were born from above.

Both of these positions have caused much debate here on this forum..

In term of your second request, I will read it and get back to you...

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/4/7 10:14Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Hi Jeff,

Quote:

"Secondly, I teach that all the OT saints were born from above."

How? Where? When?

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/4/7 18:23Profile
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Posts: 4792


 Re:

Prov. 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,
And treasure my commands within you,
2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom,
And apply your heart to understanding;
3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment,
And lift up your voice for understanding,
4 If you seek her as silver,
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD,
And find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,
Equity and every good path.
10 When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,

For what purpose does God supply wisdom?

11 Discretion will preserve you;
Understanding will keep you,
12 To deliver you from the way of evil,
From the man who speaks perverse things,
13 From those who leave the paths of uprightness
To walk in the ways of darkness;

Wisdom which comes from God is righteousness. This wisdom knows nothing of man's fallen ways. The contents of this wisdom describes Christ. The contents of the wisdom conforms one into the image of the Son.

Prov. 8:1 Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
4 “To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;

Listen to what she brings...

And then listen to what results...

34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;
36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
All those who hate me love death.”

Jesus said to Nicodemus...

11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.

What is it that Jesus and his disciples testify of?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/4/8 12:07Profile
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Prov. 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,
And treasure my commands within you,
2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom,
And apply your heart to understanding;
3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment,
And lift up your voice for understanding,
4 If you seek her as silver,
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD,
And find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,
Equity and every good path.
10 When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,

This is Christ. We are sons by Him that is in us. Did He receive God's Words?

This is the WHEN> He had to be sent. Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Jhn 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Jhn 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

This is the Where, The Cross.



For what purpose does God supply wisdom? Wisdom can only enter by the Christ that is in us, that was sent for that purpose.
1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Phl 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is.


Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the HOW.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

IN Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/4/8 15:22Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
This is the WHEN> He had to be sent. Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.



Two questions;

First, who sent Melchizedeck to Abraham?

Second, for what purpose did the priestly Order of Melchizedeck exist during Abraham's time?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/4/10 21:14Profile





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