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beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
If you are saying that the godhead is always 'one in will' I have no issues, but if you are saying there is only one point of volition within the Godhead you are moving in the same direction as 'beenblake' in his assertion that the Father, Son and Spirit are not 'persons' but one 'person'.



I would just like to clarify, by this are you saying that God(the Godhead) has three distinct volitions(wills), and these three wills are 'one in will' because they are in agreement?

Here is also another question:
When we reach Heaven, we will be united with God as one. We will be 'one in will' with Him. Is this because of our submission unto God and His will? Or is this because we will be equal with God and He will agree with us?

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/12/11 20:05Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
Please explain...

“Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” (Luke 22:42, KJVS)



On the surface it does appear that Jesus has in fact a seperate will from the Father. There are several other scriptures that confirm this as well. (John 5:30; 6:38)

Jesus is God and man. The will Jesus is spoken of as shown in Luke 22:24 is not one of divine volition but of earthly volition designated by the flesh. This is made clear by John 5:30.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Notice that the scripture says, "I can of mine own self do nothing."

If Jesus is indeed God, and one of the three in the GodHead, then He is completely divine in all ways and He is complete in all ways. If a person says, "Jesus needs the father" then Jesus is not in fact complete because He needs the father.

In the above scripture however, Jesus says that He can of His own self do nothing. This obviously establishes that Jesus, apart from God as an independent self, can do nothing. This suggests that apart from God, Jesus is just flesh.

And so, the will that Jesus is speaking when He says, "not mine own will" is referring to the will designated to Him by His flesh, and not the divine will of God.

In John 1:13, "nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man." The greek word used here is the same greek word used in Luke 22:43. This indicates that the flesh has a will and that man has a will.

In Eph 2:3, the same greek word is used, except it is translated "desire." The verse says, "the desires of the flesh and of the mind...". Are the will of the flesh and of the mind the same will, or seperate? I don't know.

The point of this is to establish that the flesh has a will independent of the spirit. The conflict of these two is problematic for us. Paul speaks about this in Galatians:

Galatians 5:17 (KJSV)
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Jesus lived in the flesh and thus was tempted in all ways just as we are tempted. The conflict of the will of the flesh and the will of God existed in Him. This was definitely highlighted by the experience at Gethsemane. We struggle with this everyday.

Jesus struggled with the will of the flesh, however, He never submitted to it. Jesus never sinned. He always sought and did the will of the Father. He never once defied the divine will.

Jesus was able to do this because He is God. God is good and only God is good. Though we as Christians have the Holy Spirit in us, we still cannot master the flesh. We do not have the power to be master of our own flesh. We need Jesus to be the master of our flesh, and in turn, we are a servant of Jesus.

Within God, I do not believe there are three volitions in agreement. God is good. He is good because He is without conflict. God is pleasing to God. Within man, there is great conflict. We cannot do our own will let alone the will of God. We cannot master our flesh. God, however, has one will, and the power and wisdom to master it. God is Holy, Holy, Holy. His love is perfect.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/12/11 20:51Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: Does this mean that you think that new birth substitutes Christ's spirit for our own spirit?

Who was our spirit before rebirth? We were of our father the Devil. John 8:42-44 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Yes the Spirit of Christ has been birthed in the Believer, and His Spirit is now Our spirit.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Romans 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the >>>Spirit is life because of righteousness.>righteousness,


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Phillip

 2005/12/11 22:44Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and >>>righteousness,


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Phillip

 2005/12/11 22:54Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
by Christinyou on 2005/12/12 3:44:33
Who was our spirit before rebirth? We were of our father the Devil. John 8:42-44 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Yes the Spirit of Christ has been birthed in the Believer, and His Spirit is now Our spirit.

The promise of the New Covenant as we find it in Ezekiel makes a careful distinction between 'our spirit' and 'God's spirit'.“A new heart also will I give you, and [u]a new spirit will I put within you[/u]: [b]and[/b] I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, [b]and[/b] I will give you an heart of flesh. [u][b]And[/b] I will put my spirit within you[/u], [b]and[/b] cause you to walk in my statutes, [b]and[/b] ye shall keep my judgments, [b]and[/b] do them.” (Ezek. 36:26-27, KJVS)The spirit is most certainly renewed in regeneration but it is not replaced by the Spirit of God. Rather it is the creating of a new spirit which makes it a fit dwelling place for God's spirit.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/12/12 6:39Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Col 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If before we believed we were of our father the devil and after we are of Christ our Savior and God our Father. This to me would be Satan out and Christ in. We have a complete new life in Christ and Christ is a complete life new in us.

We now have the Spirit of Christ in us, He and His Father make their abode with us and the Promise of the Holy Spirit sent by the Father and requested by the Son is also in us. We have it all not a fixer upper body soul and spirit but a completely New Spirit, Christ in you the Hope of Glory, God the Father abiding with His Son in us also, and the Holy Spirit in our soul, renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ. We either Got all of it or none of it, you cannot just get part of God's Plan for His salvation, which is Christ and all His Glory in the believer, ye must be Born Again.

Ezekiel does not say He would regenerate our spirit but would Give us A complete New Spirit and that Spirit is the Spirit of Life in whom we live and move and have our being, Jesus Christ. Amen.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/12/14 5:39Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
If before we believed we were of our father the devil and after we are of Christ our Savior and God our Father. This to me would be Satan out and Christ in. We have a complete new life in Christ and Christ is a complete life new in us.

I have no problems with this conclusion, but to suggest that the human spirit is replaced by Christ's spirit is a bridge too far. Is this another Witness Lee conclusion?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/12/14 5:43Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Who is witness Lee?


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Phillip

 2005/12/14 17:03Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Who is witness Lee?

I apologise for this presumption. Your support of Grafted Branch's posting had led me to assume that you were on the same mind throughout. Again, my apologies.

Who is Witness Lee? Here is one [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee]answer[/url] to that question.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/12/15 10:24Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Thank you for the information on Lee.

"Lee, late in his life, following the example of Athanasius, declared that God became man in Jesus so that man could become God in Christ (in the life and nature of God, but not in His Godhead). So foreign was such a declaration to the ears of many modern Western Christians, that it was taken by some as being heretical."

I would only add to this quote in adding "as" to becoming >as< God in Christ. Why did we have to be rebirthed? Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God and God all along has wanted son's in His house. We are born again for that purpose so we can enter the Father's House.

I will study Lee, and remember he is of oriental descent and keep in mind his cultural upbringing into his faith. We all have this problem and only the Holy Spirit can bring us into the Oneness of Christ in each other.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2005/12/15 18:16Profile





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