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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Christinyou's

Quote:
Christinyou on 2005/12/8 10:56:46
No, No, On, Water baptism it does nothing except to give evidence in this world of what has happened in the spirit of a saved person. Where have I made the implication that water baptism is what will save you?

I took up this issue because you described baptism (and I have presumed you meant 'water' as you quoted John 3:3-5) as 'the proximate instrument' of new birth.


Quote:
Christinyou on 2005/12/7 18:26:59
By means of the Word the man receives the incorruptible seed of the Holy Spirit, which is Christ in you the hope of glory and so becomes one "born again": Joh 3:3-5, "born of water and the Spirit": as there is but one Greek article to the two nouns, the close connection of the sign and the grace, or new birth signified is implied. The word is the remote and anterior instrument; baptism, the proximate instrument.

An instrument is a 'means' by which an action is conducted.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/12/8 13:49Profile
beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Robert,

Quote:
I am trying to see how this model even has relevance within your view of God. If Jesus Christ is the Father and the Son then the whole model becomes nonsense.



I forgot myself the point I was trying to make by all that. Lol. I'll have to review all that I said.

In regards to you statement of nonsense......

John says (KJ) "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John says the Word was with God and the Word was God. How is it possible for something to be "with" God, and "was" God? Is that not nonsense?

Have you ever said of anything, "This is with me, and it is me."?

When a man and woman marry, they become one flesh and yet they are two persons. Have you ever said, "My wife is with me, and she is me."??

How is this possible?

I will share with you how this makes sense, in accord with what I believe, if you would like. I would be curious as to how you respond to this, and how it makes sense to you. How do you understand the "with" and "was" spoken of here?

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/12/8 17:05Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
by beenblake on 2005/12/8 22:05:33
Have you ever said of anything, "This is with me, and it is me."?

When a man and woman marry, they become one flesh and yet they are two persons. Have you ever said, "My wife is with me, and she is me."??

You raised this previously, I recall. If I may interpose into the specfic Robert questions... No and no. I have never said of something that was 'not me' this is 'me'. I can't imagine putting together into one sentence "this is not me and on the other hand this is me" I cannot imagine putting together "I am 'with' myself" either. This makes communication non-sense.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/12/8 17:33Profile
beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
I cannot imagine putting together "I am 'with' myself" either. This makes communication non-sense.



On the surface, it seems to be logically unreasonable, unless of course you are beside yourself. Lol.

If I am not with myself, then I must be away from myself. Have I lost my mind, or myself?

I do believe that by saying "with," John established a distinction between the Word and God. However, by saying the Word "was" God, John established a unity that is more than any relationship we physically know. I don't think anyone would argue with this.

I believe that the great mystery of our faith is how God could become a man and die for our sins. The trinity is not a mystery, and can be understood. However, there is nothing on earth that bears this resemeblence except for man, because man was created in God's image. Man is the only creature that bears a trinity that is like that of God.

However, many people don't understand even the trinity that exists within us for none of it is seen. However, it can be found in the bible, although not easy discerned.

I will explain in the next post...

Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/12/8 22:12Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

The Trinity.

So, I will explain this the best that I can. Of course, it is good that we debate or question things as this helps to siphon out any error.

What is the Trinity?

In a previous post, I established that it was "God, God's Word, and God's Wisdom." Humans were created in the image of God, and we too share this trinity just as God does. Ours is limited in comparison to God, but just as God bears this trinity, so do we.

The trinity is simply this: heart, word, wisdom. I will go through each of these and explain what they are as best as I can.

The Heart

The heart is the very essence of one's being. It is in the heart that all choices are made. The will of man or God comes from the heart. Our loves also comes from our heart. When we love someone or something, we give them our heart. Our heart is our very nature.

The Lord said He judges people according to thier heart.(1 Samuel 16:7) Sin lives in the heart.(Psalms 19:12; 66:18) From our heart comes all our words and actions. (Proverbs 4:23; Matthew 6:21; 12:34) Our heart is the place of our desire and will. (Psalms 21:2; 27:8) When we are saved, the Lord gives us a new heart. (Ezekiel 18:31; 36:26)

The Word

The word is the will spoken. The word of a man is his power and strength. The word of a man is limited to his body. For instance, it is the will of a man to sit down. He then commands his body, he speaks, and the body then responds to the will of the man by sitting.

In a man, the word has two forms, innate and uttered. A man may have a particular will, but has not yet acted on that will. This is the innate word. When the man utters his word, he has spoken and his will be done.

When we speak of the "word", we are not just talking about "words." We are talking about the will in action. Our words and our actions are the will in action. The word comes from the heart acting upon our will. Our word is chosen in our heart.

Man's word is limited. When we speak, our word may never be done. God's Word is full of living power.(Hebrews 4:12) When God spoke, the whole universe was created.(Genesis 1) God's Word is the light of men.(John 1:9) God's Word does the will of God exactly.

The Wisdom

Wisdom is righteousness.(Proverbs 8:20; Psalms 37:30) Wisdom is truth, understanding, and instruction. (Proverbs 23:23) Wisdom is the beauty of God and man. (Ezekiel 28:7) Wisdom is not merely knowledge, but the knowledge of truth.

The wisdom of men has been immensely limited, moreso than our word. When we are born, we have little wisdom if any. Our wisdom is gained through experience. True wisdom and righteousness comes from God.

God's Wisdom is clearly the Holy Spirit. This is made evident in Proverbs 8, as shown in a previous post.

Jesus called the Holy Spirit the great Counselor. Wisdom speaks in Proverbs 8:14 saying, "Counsel is mine."

The Word of God is all powerful, and the Spirit of God is all seeing.

God's Word and Wisdom

Zechariah 4:14 speaks of God's two anointed ones that standing by the Lord. This is the Lord's Word and Wisdom. They are being personified here, however, they are not seperate persons.

God's Word and Wisdom are a united pair, much like a husband and wife are one flesh. These have a strict unity that is indivisible. The word is the fountain of wisdom. The word is the will in action, and it is always accompanied with wisdom. The word acts in accord with wisdom as chosen by the heart.

I believe that when God created male and female in His image, He bestowed upon males the image of God's Word, and upon females the image of God's Wisdom.

When the Word created the heavens in the earth, it did so bearing wisdom. Like a wife, Wisdom always accompanies the Word as His helper. When the Word became flesh, it was concieved by the Spirit, and came bearing the Spirit. Jesus was the Word become flesh filled with the Wisdom of God.

Unity and Distinction

God is one. He is indivisible. There is one God. There is not three Gods. God is one person. God has one will. God has one nature. God has one heart. God has one Word. God has one Wisdom. God is one.

These are not seperate modes of God. These three are all working simultaneously, all communicating with each other. They are like three persons as such, although to call them three persons is highly misleading as it lends itself to three seperate Gods too easily.

A man also has a heart, word, and wisdom. A man has a heart which is where his will and love comes. A man has a word that is manifested in the flesh. A man's power comes from his word which is made possible through his flesh. A man also has wisdom, his own spirit. A man's word does the will of a man in accord with the counsel of his wisdom. Some might call these three: mind, body, and soul. Although, I believe this is a poor summation.

Man was created in God's image. One man is one person. Man is three in one. God is also one person who is three in one.

I could expand on all this, but I think that is enough for now.

The Word was with God and the Word was God.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/12/9 0:12Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

beenblake's

Quote:
In a previous post, I established that it was "God, God's Word, and God's Wisdom." Humans were created in the image of God, and we too share this trinity just as God does. Ours is limited in comparison to God, but just as God bears this trinity, so do we.

You have by no means 'established' any such thing. Mankind is not a 'trinity' and no-one would say so who was not changing the whole concept of the word. God does not 'bear a trinity': you are misappropriating the concept in your mix of unitarianism and modalism.

Quote:
The Word of God is all powerful, and the Spirit of God is all seeing.

In distributing the attributes of God between the Father, Son and Spirit you deny the essential divinity of each. The Father must have all the attribute of divinity to be God, so must the Son, so must the Spirit.

Quote:
Man was created in God's image. One man is one person. Man is three in one. God is also one person who is three in one.

For any who have come late to this discussion, this is beenBlake's continuing contention. He denies the distinctive personality of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. In the end, it is form of unitarianism which denies the concept of eternal fellowship between the Father, Son and Spirit.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/12/9 4:05Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
In distributing the attributes of God between the Father, Son and Spirit you deny the essential divinity of each. The Father must have all the attribute of divinity to be God, so must the Son, so must the Spirit.



This statement would be correct if there was no unity. However, the whole point of the Trinity is that they are unified as one. They are not three seperate God's, but one. If each is a unique divinity, then you are saying there is three divinities and three Gods. However, the three all have the same divinity. The three are all one God.

Quote:
God does not 'bear a trinity'



Indeed, I used the wrong words here. God is a trinity. God does not have or bear a trinity, He is a trinity.

The union of the three is most essential. What one experiences, all experiences. What one has, all has. They are unified. And yet, there is a distinction of three. The purpose of each is significant to the understanding of all of creation, especially that of man.

Ron, I am sorry that you disagree with me. I did not expect this would be well recieved. I wanted to share anyway.

In love,
Blake




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Blake Kidney

 2005/12/9 8:33Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
However, the whole point of the Trinity is that they are unified as one.

There is no 'point' to the Trinity, it is simply a statement of human understanding which over centuries has proved to be the best that we can do to 'understand' the complex nature of one God in three Persons. And no I am most definitely NOT saying there are 'three Gods'.

Quote:
he union of the three is most essential. What one experiences, all experiences. What one has, all has. They are unified. And yet, there is a distinction of three. The purpose of each is significant to the understanding of all of creation, especially that of man.

This is why modalism was called patri-passionism, as Tertullian phrased it 'they have crucified the Father'! I am at a loss to understand why you hang on to a distinction of three and yet will not grant personhood to each. You have said, incorrectly, that man is a trinity. He is not. In theological language man is 'tripartite' not a 'trinity'. God, on the other hand is not 'tripartite', He is trinity. The distinction is that my three 'parts' make one person. God has no parts, but three distinct persons.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/12/9 10:45Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
In theological language man is 'tripartite' not a 'trinity'.



This I did not know, and I will research it.

Quote:
The distinction is that my three 'parts' make one person. God has no parts, but three distinct persons.



I don't believe God is three parts. I don't believe man is just a bunch of parts either.

Why cannot I accept that God is three distinct persons?

Because each person has thier own word, will, and wisdom.

To say this states that God has three wills that are unified. God does not have three wills, He has one will. His will is supreme. The whole basis for God's goodness hinges on this fact: that God is one with one will. Only God is good. Only God! There is no other that is good. And so, if you say Jesus had a seperate will from God, then you are saying that Jesus was not good, and thus, Jesus could not die for our sins and Jesus is not God.

Adam was created with a seperate will from God. And because Adam's will was individual from God, Adam was not good. Never once did God look upon Adam see Adam was good. He saw that everything else was good, but He did not see that Adam was good. That is why it is so essential for us to submit unto God's will, not by our own power (or works), but with the Spirit. We are not good because we are good, but because God is good who is living in us. Jesus was good because He was God. Jesus was the Word of God become flesh.

There are many other reasons why saying God is three persons is misleading, but this is the biggest.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/12/9 12:30Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
by beenblake on 2005/12/9 17:30:18
To say this states that God has three wills that are unified. God does not have three wills, He has one will. His will is supreme. The whole basis for God's goodness hinges on this fact: that God is one with one will.

Please explain...“Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” (Luke 22:42, KJVS)

Quote:
Only God is good. Only God! There is no other that is good. And so, if you say Jesus had a seperate will from God, then you are saying that Jesus was not good, and thus, Jesus could not die for our sins and Jesus is not God.

I am saying no such thing, and would prefer that you didn't put words into my mouth. What you are explaining here is what I would have to believe if I held your distorted views of godhead. The verse you quoted is usually expounded by evangelicals along the line that this was a challenge to the men to recognize that Christ was, in fact, God.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/12/9 18:33Profile





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