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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The "son" shares characteristics (or something) of the "father" who bestowed or brought forth those characteristics (or something) in the son. Something of the "father" has been put into the "son," and this "putting into" was done at a certain point in time called a "birth."

In fact the concept of 'child' has more to do with 'likeness' in the scriptures. eg“[u]I know that ye are Abraham’s seed[/u]; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, [u]If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham[/u].” (John 8:37-39, KJVS)Christ spoke to those who were Abraham's seed but not Abraham's children; a vital distinction apparently.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/12/7 7:43Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Seed, pretty important I would say, it is the only thing that brings life.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible Seed, but of incorruptible, by the Lord (oops Word) of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We have the Seed of the Father By Christ the Incorruptable Seed birthed in us.

of . . . of . . . by--"The word of God" is not the literal printed material of bible, but the spiritual Person of Christ being our new birth, He is the means and medium. By means of the Word the man receives the incorruptible seed of the Holy Spirit, which is Christ in you the hope of glory and so becomes one "born again": Joh 3:3-5, "born of water and the Spirit": as there is but one Greek article to the two nouns, the close connection of the sign and the grace, or new birth signified is implied. The word is the remote and anterior instrument; baptism, the proximate instrument. The word is the instrument in relation to the individual; baptism Into One Spirit in relation to the Church as The Body of Christ. (Jas 1:18) and 1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. We are born again of the Spirit, yet not without the use of means, but by the Word of God. The word is the beggeting principle itself, but only that by which it works: the vehicle of the mysterious germinating power Of Christ in you the hope of Glory. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In Christ:Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/12/7 13:26Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
as there is but one Greek article to the two nouns, the close connection of the sign and the grace, or new birth signified is implied. The word is the remote and anterior instrument; baptism, the proximate instrument.

Baptism is the 'the proximate instrument' of regeneration? I ask again, do you really mean to say this? This sounds as though we are getting very close to some kind of 'baptismal regeneration'.

Quote:
Joh 3:3-5, "born of water and the Spirit": as there is but one Greek article to the two nouns, the close connection of the sign and the grace, or new birth signified is implied.

Which Greek text are you using here? Neither the Byzantine Textform nor Westcott and Hort have the definite article for either 'water' or 'spirit'. The Darby translation shows the grammatic sense of the sentence...“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5, DRBY)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/12/7 14:02Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
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 Re:

Absolutely Not!

There is only one baptism that counts, that is why I used the scripture, "We are all baptized into one Spirit." Baptismal Regeneration is not the one that gets us wet unless it is the washing of Water of the Word. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The Holy Spirit is the One that washes us by the Word, The Word is Christ Himself, and the Blood of Christ cleanses to the utmost. There is no Baptismal Regeneration unless it is of Christ used by the Holy Spirit in Christ's Redemption.

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you.

In Christ: Phillip

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


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Phillip

 2005/12/7 15:44Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
There is only one baptism that counts, that is why I used the scripture, "We are all baptized into one Spirit." Baptismal Regeneration is not the one that gets us wet unless it is the washing of Water of the Word. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

So why say that 'water baptism' is 'the instrument'? Is that what you were saying? And which Greek texts are you using?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/12/7 18:07Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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 Re:

No, that is not what I was saying. I am using Strong's and Wuest's Greek Word studies in the Greek New Testament.

The washing of water with the Word is the Holy Spirit using the Christ in us to cleanse us and teach us this Christ that is birthed by the Father that is in us. Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I wrote: We are born again of the Spirit, yet not without the use of means, but by the Word of God. The word is the beggeting principle itself, but only that by which it works: the vehicle of the mysterious germinating power Of Christ in you the hope of Glory.

The means is Christ not water baptism. But if you want to be baptized in water lets find the river. :-D


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Phillip

 2005/12/8 0:01Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
We are born again of the Spirit, yet not without the use of means, but by the Word of God. The word is the beggeting principle itself, but only that by which it works: the vehicle of the mysterious germinating power Of Christ in you the hope of Glory.

So you are saying that 'water baptism' is a 'means'. This is still 'baptismal regeneration'.

btw I was baptised in water over 40 years ago and have conducted many baptisms, but I never lead anyone to believe that the 'water baptism' was a 'means' whereby they were regenerated.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/12/8 5:33Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
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 Re:

No, No, On, Water baptism it does nothing except to give evidence in this world of what has happened in the spirit of a saved person. Where have I made the implication that water baptism is what will save you? I have not. Will not and would not ever say you need water baptism to be saved. I have said all along it is the baptism into Christ and His death and resurrection and the Holy Spirit baptism in us that Christ promised. There is only one baptismal regeneration and that is when Christ is Born Again in the Believer by the Father which has nothing to do with water baptism in the Church by a person, that can save no one. Only Christ in you the Hope of Glory is our salvation.

If a person is saved and wants to be baptized in water, Christ has already been spiritually baptized in them, they now have all of Christ and all the Holy Spirit both having been baptized in them not water baptism. We must separate water baptism and The Holy Spirit baptizing us into Christ and The Holy Spirit being baptized into us by the Father at the request of Jesus, the Comforter. 1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit does not baptize in water, He baptizes us into Christ and His death, literally, we are in spirit put into Christ and Christ in us.

John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost; by which the great difference is implied between outward baptism (administered by whomsoever, though the Baptist himself) and the inward baptism of the Holy Ghost, which, as fire, separates powerfully the scum and dross of sin from us.

Quote: I said, "We are born again of the Spirit, yet not without the use of means, but by the Word of God. The word is the beggeting principle itself, but only that by which it works: the vehicle of the mysterious germinating power Of Christ in you the hope of Glory.

The means is Christ. Christ is the Means. Christ = means The means of salvation is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. I see no water baptism in any of this. God the Father places Jesus Christ in the believer by the Holy Spirit and is sealed by the Holy Spirit, this is being born again, born from above.


In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/12/8 5:56Profile
beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
In fact the concept of 'child' has more to do with 'likeness' in the scriptures.

“I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.” (John 8:37-39, KJVS)



You are correct to say there is a distinction. My biological father, as I call him, is my father because I am a seed of him. His biology has been transferred into me. My stepfather is my father because he has loved me. I have a father and son relationship with him.

In this passage, Jesus does establish that they are a "seed" of Abraham, as such suggesting that they are a descendant of Abraham. By this, they are in fact the children of Abraham. However, Jesus also says, "If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham."

To me, this establishes the relationship of love. If they loved Abraham as a father, then they would do the works of Abraham. However, they do not love him as a father, and therefore, do not honor him or obey him.

In either, there is an established point of birth. When I exited my mother's womb, I was born of flesh. When my stepfather decided to be my father, adopt me and raise me, and when I accepted him as my father, I was born in love. My father's love was "put into" me by his choice to love me and my acceptance of his love.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/12/8 10:07Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Blake,

Quote:
In either, there is an established point of birth. When I exited my mother's womb, I was born of flesh. When my stepfather decided to be my father, adopt me and raise me, and when I accepted him as my father, I was born in love.



I am trying to see how this model even has relevance within your view of God. If Jesus Christ is the Father [u]and[/u] the Son then the whole model becomes nonsense.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/12/8 13:18Profile





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