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beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Nasher,

On Zechariah 13:7....

I think it is interesting that the Lord is speaking to a sword. He commands the sword, "Awake, O sword." Would you say that because the Lord has spoken to the sword that it is a seperate person from the Lord?

As far as the word "associate" which is translated other places as "neighbor".... This does establish a level of distinction. I do believe there is a level of distinction between God and God's Son, however, to what degree I do not know. This distinction, however, would not lead me to say that the Son is not the Father, or that they are two seperate persons.

Additionally, one thing I would like to establish is that an associate is not someone who is less than, but someone that is equal with and shares in. They are associated with you and bound together by some sort of association.

The scripture says, "the man who." It definitely establishes that this associate is a man, specifically a man who has strength and is able to fight.

And so, the Lord is calling a man "My associate." What? How is that possible? How can any man be called an associate of God? All men were created by God. They are less than God. All men are bad. No one is good. How could a man be called God's associate?

I think it is interesting, as well, that the sheep are called "little ones". The sheep are obviously not on the same level as the shepard. They are much less. They are little in comparison.

This man is not the average man. This man is not only an associate of God, He is also the King of men. He is a man, and yet greater than men.

Curiously, what do you make of this scripture?

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/23 12:38Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3694
Ca.

 Re:

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Our image and our likeness. Already the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

And this is the rest of the story.

Ephesians 1:4-11 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

Christ was in the God Head as the Son before the foundation of the world ever was. It was already in God's plan for us to be in Christ when He created Adam, knowing without the Nature of God being in us, man, he could never be righteousness; 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him (God the Father)are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: and be the children of God with His nature filling us with the Life of God Himself in Christ Jesus our Seed. If we are not born again we cannot see the things of the Kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of Incorruptible,(Seed) by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

And who is the Word of God, of course Jesus Christ Himself the Seed.

The dispensation of the fullness of time, remember 1 day is as a thousand years to the Father. It has not been even 2 weeks to God and all this has happened. There is only time with us that God might show us past present and future in Christ. There is no past present and future with God, He always was and always will be. Seeing Christ as all in all from Gods Point of view is the very essence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit when it comes to dealing with His creation.

One year to God and of course this is only to give us finite creation perspective, is as 365,000 years, 75 years, the life of a man=27,275,000 years to God. Long time Huh? And still not eternity. Christ is all in all, has been and always will be.



In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2005/11/23 14:36Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Nasher,

I read through that article, and I would have to say I agree with some of the points that he makes as well.

I would agree with Ron that Psalms 2 is speaking of Jesus at the resurrection as Paul had preached in Acts 13:33. And as such, it is establishing that Jesus is the firstborn son of many sons who would become children of God by being born into the Spirit.

I also cannot deny the statement that "the Word became flesh." This definitely establishes a point of birth and conception. Jesus is the Son of God, as He originated from God.

I also agree with this by John MacArthur...

1. I am now convinced that the title "Son of God" when applied to Christ in Scripture always speaks of His essential deity and absolute equality with God, not His voluntary subordination. The Jewish leaders of Jesus' time understood this perfectly. John 5:18 says they sought the death penalty against Jesus, charging Him with blasphemy "because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

In that culture, a dignitary's adult son was deemed equal in stature and privilege with his father. The same deference demanded by a king was afforded to his adult son. The son was, after all, of the very same essence as his father, heir to all the father's rights and privileges—and therefore equal in every significant regard. So when Jesus was called "Son of God," it was understood categorically by all as a title of deity, making Him equal with God and (more significantly) of the same essence as the Father. That is precisely why the Jewish leaders regarded the title "Son of God" as high blasphemy.

Some additional thoughts....

The word "son" is a title. It does provide insight into the origins of the person whom it represents, meaning, it tells me that it is a son. All sons are offspring. This title does not always apply to humans. For instance, a dog may have sons. However, the title does establish a point of origin or birth. Any origin, as we know, has a beginning. It is a starting point. The title also provides insight into the origins of species. A son is specifically a male.

The word "son" does not indicate the process of origin. I could call a sculpture I have created, "my son." I created the sculpture and it originated from me. It is my son. I could also give birth to an idea, or to another human being. The process of origination is not described in the title. As Ron has established, we can be called a "son" for multiple reasons. We may be born of a nation and called the "son" of that nation. We are sons of England. We are sons of Adam. We are sons of our fathers. And we are sons of our Father.

Even still, a son is born. It has a point of origin. And so, if Jesus is God and is eternal, how could He have a point of origin?

Genesis 4:1 (KJ)
And Adam knew * Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare * Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

The word "gotten" is from the Hebrew word "Qanah" which means "to get, acquire, create, buy, possess." The word "bare" is from the Hebrew word "Yalad" which means "to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail."

I think it is interesting to note that Eve acknowledge that the Lord possessed Cain, however, she brought him forth. These two words are significant in understanding sonship.

We have all been possessed by God. We are His thought, His idea, and His concept. Before the world began, we were but a thought in His head. We were a concept and an idea. We were His until the day we were born. We were given over to our parents who brought us forth. We were born into the world. We were concieved by our parents and then begotten by our mothers.

God's Word, however, has eternally been with God. God's Word was God. Thus, God's Word was never acquired with a point of acquisition, but rather, God's Word was God. God's Word was eternally possessed. In other words, God's Word has eternally belonged to God. No one has or ever will own God's Word. It is His Word and only His. God's Word is in the bosom of the Father.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

It says "is in" and not "was in." This implies that the Word never left the father. The Word cannot be seperated from Him. The Word is one with God. The Word was God.

At some point, however, the Word of God was brought forth. The Word was not seperated from God. The Word was brought forth into flesh. The Word became flesh. At this point, the title of "son" became fully realized, for at this point did The Word become a human male. At this point, the Word was not only the son of God, but the Word was also the son of man. The Word is the only Son. The Word is the only one who is the son of God and the son of Man.

This is not to say that this is the only time the Word was brought forth. The Word was also brought forth at the beginning of creation.

Colossians 1:17 (NASB)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

John 1:3 (NAS)
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

The Word was brought forth at the beginning of creation. The Word is the "firstborn of all creation." The Word was brought forth before everything else. And then, through the Word, everything was created.

Thus, Jesus was begotten three times in accord with the bible:

1) He was brought forth as the firstborn of all creation.
2) He was brought forth as the first to be born with the Spirit of God in the flesh.
3) He was brought forth as the first to be resurrected into new life.

Additionally, Jesus is eternally in the bosom of God.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/11/23 15:10Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The word "son" does not indicate the process of origin. I could call a sculpture I have created, "my son." I created the sculpture and it originated from me. It is my son. I could also give birth to an idea, or to another human being. The process of origination is not described in the title. As Ron has established, we can be called a "son" for multiple reasons. We may be born of a nation and called the "son" of that nation. We are sons of England. We are sons of Adam. We are sons of our fathers. And we are sons of our Father.

Even still, a son is born. It has a point of origin. And so, if Jesus is God and is eternal, how could He have a point of origin?

I don't think you could call a sculpture a 'son'. The word 'son' has to do with things paternal and filial; it is a mutual relationship word. For you to be able to call a sculpture a 'son' the sculpture would have to have the ability to call you 'father'.

And by saying a 'son is born' you are making the metaphor much more literal than I would make it. I don't think the point of 'born' is that it had an origin but rather that is has the 'life' of the 'father' in it.

I realise with these words that the language I read in the scripture has a 'feel' about it. I see that the scripture speaks of men who 'became sons' but who had no biological link with the 'father'. I read of 'begettings' when there was no physical offspring. These are all 'relationship' words rather than 'biological indicators' or even 'time indicators'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/24 17:57Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I think it is interesting that the Lord is speaking to a sword. He commands the sword, "Awake, O sword." Would you say that because the Lord has spoken to the sword that it is a seperate person from the Lord?


If the sword spoke back to God, then perhaps, otherwise, no.


Quote:
I do believe there is a level of distinction between God and God's Son, however, to what degree I do not know. This distinction, however, would not lead me to say that the Son is not the Father, or that they are two seperate persons.


Are you saying God has an alter-ego / split personality?


Quote:
And so, the Lord is calling a man "My associate." What? How is that possible? How can any man be called an associate of God? All men were created by God. They are less than God. All men are bad. No one is good. How could a man be called God's associate?


Only Jesus, who is 100% God and 100% man be called an associate of God the Father, He has been this "associate" for all eternity.


Quote:
Curiously, what do you make of this scripture?


This is the Father saying [u]He[/u] will strike the shepherd (Jesus).

It is a very sobering thought...


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Mark Nash

 2005/11/25 9:02Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3694
Ca.

 Re:


Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children , in that he hath raised up Jesus again ; as it is also written in the second psalm , Thou art my Son , this day have I begotten thee .

begotten;
1080. gennao
Search for G1080 in KJVSL
gennaw gennao ghen-nah'-o

from a variation of 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Check out the Hebrew in Psa 2 Psalms 2:7-8 I will declare the decree : the LORD hath said of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance , and the uttermost parts for thy possession


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Phillip

 2005/11/26 4:54Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Nasher,

Quote:
Are you saying God has an alter-ego / split personality?



Jesus was a teacher, was He not? He came to demonstrate and teach us. The most effective form of teaching is demonstration. If you want to teach your children not to smoke cigarettes, then don't smoke yourself. They will do what you do.

We are followers of Jesus and thus we do what Jesus does. We mimic Him. God was not crazy, he was teaching us.

God is not split in any way, even in His person.

Quote:
Only Jesus, who is 100% God and 100% man be called an associate of God the Father, He has been this "associate" for all eternity.



So how do you explain this scripture...

Zechariah 4:14
Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

And what do you make of angels and demons? They often appeared in human form. Are the angels and demons persons? Would you say Satan is a person?

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/29 10:36Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
I don't think you could call a sculpture a 'son'. The word 'son' has to do with things paternal and filial; it is a mutual relationship word. For you to be able to call a sculpture a 'son' the sculpture would have to have the ability to call you 'father'.



Many artists, especially musicians, refer to thier art as thier children. Granted, they do not use the words, "son" or "daughter" as it tells of a specific sex. Artists who put themselves into thier work will call the final piece "my child."

I do agree this describes a relationship. However, it is not always a human relationship where by the word of one is transferred with the word of another in communication. A dog may have a puppy that is called the "son" of the "father." This term is used for animals all the time.

Don't you think that saying something is your "son" connotes something more than just a relationship?

The "son" shares characteristics (or something) of the "father" who bestowed or brought forth those characteristics (or something) in the son. Something of the "father" has been put into the "son," and this "putting into" was done at a certain point in time called a "birth."

By this, not everything I create can be called my "son." However, if I create something that has a part of me put into it, then I would call it my "son." More or less, a part of the "father" somehow influences the development or creation of the "son."

The man I call my father is actually my stepfather and bears no biological relation to me. I call him "father" because he raised me. What he put into me was not his blood, but his soul. He raised me from a child directing my growth. I am adopted by him as a son, though I am not born of him, I am still his by his own choice. I am called his son because of what he has done for me and what he has put into me.

At some point, he had to make the choice to be my father, and I suppose you could call this my birth, the point by which he was put into me and I became his son.

Even still, I believe that the birth we experience with the Spirit is even more dramatic. We are transformed by the Spirit and given new life. We are born again.

I am a son of God because He has transformed me and made me new. I have been born again and have experienced a new birth.

By calling God my "Father," I am not just recognizing the intimate relationship I have with Him, I am also recognizing the influence and power He has had over my person. I am who I am because of Him.

I suppose that is why "beggetting" or being born in my mind is best said as being "brought forth." Because we were "brought forth" at some point by our parents. We don't just have a relationship with them, we have been "brought forth" by them. Who I am has originated from a source that is my parents. (Not all that I am, because I am a seperate person from them. However, since Jesus was not seperate from the father, all that He is comes from God.)

I think it is interesting to note that Jesus came from the father and then through Jesus, everything else was created. And so, Jesus is truly the only son of the father as the bible says.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/11/29 11:14Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3694
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: So how do you explain this scripture...

Zechariah 4:14
Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.



Zec 4:14
v11-14 Zechariah desires to know what are the two olive trees. Zerubbabel and Joshua, this prince and this priest, were endued with the gifts and graces of God's Spirit. They lived at the same time, and both were instruments in the work and service of God. Christ's offices of King and Priest were shadowed forth by them. From the union of these two offices in his person, both God and man, the fullness of grace is received and imparted. They built the temple, the church of God. So does Christ spiritually. Christ is not only the Messiah, the Anointed One himself, but he is the Good Olive to his church; and from his fulness we receive. And the Holy Spirit is the unction or anointing which we have received. From Christ the Olive Tree, by the Spirit the Olive Branch, all the golden oil of grace flows to believers, which keeps their lamps burning. Let us seek, through the intercession and bounty of the Saviour, supplies from that fulness which has hitherto sufficed for all his saints, according to their trials and employments. Let us wait on him in his ordinances, desiring to be sanctified wholly in body, soul, and spirit.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/12/3 22:20Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3694
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

""The word "son" does not indicate the process of origin. I could call a sculpture I have created, "my son." I created the sculpture and it originated from me. It is my son. I could also give birth to an idea, or to another human being. The process of origination is not described in the title. As Ron has established, we can be called a "son" for multiple reasons. We may be born of a nation and called the "son" of that nation. We are sons of England. We are sons of Adam. We are sons of our fathers. And we are sons of our Father.

Even still, a son is born. It has a point of origin. And so, if Jesus is God and is eternal, how could He have a point of origin?""

This is the eternal Son that was with God which is called the Word and the Word was God. The beginning is the beginning of Genesis which is our beginning as we know it. God has no beginning or end. So this beginning is Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

This is the Flesh beginning of Christ- ((((This is the point of origin of the manifestation of the Son of God in the flesh)))) -as we know Him from the Gospels: John 1:11-14 He came unto his own, and his own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God in the beginning of the creation of the earth, as creating "man in our image" is eternal God the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, who always was and always will be is the eternal of all Three of the God Head who is One God.


Christ being the Word made flesh and the only begotten of the Father is the place where Christ was manifest in the Flesh but not His eternal beginning or end. As even we were chosen In Him before the foundation of the earth. Ephesians 1:4-14 According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which he hath purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in One all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His Glory.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/12/3 22:52Profile





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