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beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear All,

I hope in this debate I have not offended or belittled anyone. It has never been my intention to belittle someone's faith or thier experience with Christ. If that is what I am doing, I am deeply sorry. My ultimate goal is only to encourage others in thier faith.

I have learned much in this debate, and I am still learning. I have questioned all my thoughts, and listened to every response. Though, sometimes I fail at understanding everyone.

I do not think I am better than anyone else. I am much less, and that is apparent by many measures. I am not right, and that which is right in me is not of my own strength. If I am right it is only because of Christ in me. If I am wrong, it is because I have stumbled.

I have been praying that the Lord help and bless us all. I have been seeking unity among us, and seeing I am the only one who seems to disagree, it would appear I am the problem. I apologize. I pray that through this, we will find unity.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/11/22 16:30Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is plainly revealed in the scripture that the Father is able to have conversation with the Son while being conscious that He himself is not the Son.

Can you show me where in scripture this is?

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Mar 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

2Pe 1:17 For He (Jesus Christ) received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to Him (Jesus Christ) from the Excellent Glory, (The Father) This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This is plainly the Father speaking to Son, and yet they are both very God and the Holy Spirit agree's with the Father,


Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him:

Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him:

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in Thee I am well pleased.

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon Him.

The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit all agreeing that this is truly the Son of God.
Amen. Ready to defeat the devil Satan himself, and begin His ministry to the house of Israel and bring salvation by faith to Jew and Gentile. No more Children of Israel but Children of the Father birthing Jesus Christ in those that would believe and become son's of God a new created race of people, the full nature of God in Jesus Christ exchanging the spirit of Satan for the Spirit of Christ. Jesus the Son makes me Phillip the son and brother to Christ and all who believe.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/22 22:51Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Thanks Philip.
There are some Psalms too which make the 'inter-personal' encounter very plain.
“I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” (Psa. 2:7, KJVS)

“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” (Psa. 110:1, KJVS)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/11/23 6:42Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
It is plainly revealed in the scripture that the Father is able to have conversation with the Son while being conscious that He himself is not the Son.



I don't mean to be too pickey, but you used the word "conversation." In none of these instances did a conversation take place. It was always a one-way declaration.

When you walk, do you not command your legs to move? When you speak, do you not command your tongue? Are not your words directed by you?

And when you command your legs, do they not move? Does not your tongues say everything you command it? Or is it a seperate person from you?

Quote:
Jesus the Son makes me Phillip the son and brother to Christ and all who believe.



I agree that you are an adopted child of God. However, you must also becareful in such a statement as to call Christ your brother.

I am not equal to Christ. I could not do what He did. Who am I to die on the cross for the sins of all? I died with Christ. But I myself am a sinner who was not worthy of such. I am less than Christ, and He is more. It is my choice to accept Christ as more, but nonetheless, I worship Christ. This means Christ is my God. I have chosen to make Jesus my God, and I choose to worship and love Him as my Lord.

Is Jesus your Lord? Or is Jesus your brother?

When I reach Heaven, I will not see Christ bowing down next to me before God. Rather, I will be bowing down at the feet of Christ, worshipping Him, and giving Him all my praise.

Jesus is Lord.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/11/23 8:27Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

“I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” (Psa. 2:7, KJVS)

The doctrine of the Trinity holds the idea that the Son was eternally generated from the Father. However, this scripture above says "this day have I begotten thee." This implies a specific moment in time.

What then does this scripture mean? And how does it fit into this idea of "Eternal Generation"? Where in scripture does it support the idea of "Eternal Generation?"

I couldn't find any information on this. I am trying to understand.

Thanks,

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/11/23 8:36Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
God did not proceed from God's Word. Rather, God's Word proceeded from God. Do you see the difference?



Hi Blake, I think I have become confused, when you said "God's [u]W[/u]ord" I assumed this was capitalized to specify Jesus (John 1:1-2)


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Mark Nash

 2005/11/23 9:51Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Blake, take a look at Zechariah 13:7 below, I have used a few different versions to aid us:

Zechariah 13:7

Awake, O sword, against My shepherd and against the man who is [u]My associate[/u], says the Lord of hosts; smite the shepherd and the sheep [of the flock] shall be scattered, and I will turn back My hand and stretch it out again upon the little ones [of the flock]. (amp)

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is [u]my fellow[/u], saith Jehovah of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered; and I will turn my hand upon the little ones. (asv)

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man [u]who stands next to me[/u]," declares the LORD of hosts. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; I will turn my hand against the little ones." (esv)

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is [u]my fellow[/u], saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (kjv)

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man [u]who is close to me[/u]!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones." (niv)

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, the man who is [u]my partner[/u], says the LORD Almighty. Strike down the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn against the lambs. (nlt)

Awake, O sword, against My shepherd and against the man who is [u]My associate[/u], says the Lord of hosts; smite the shepherd and the sheep [of the flock] shall be scattered, and I will turn back My hand and stretch it out again upon the little ones [of the flock]. (amp)

Sword, awake against My shepherd, And against a hero -- [u]My fellow[/u], An affirmation of Jehovah of Hosts. Smite the shepherd, and scattered is the flock, And I have put back My hand on the little ones. (ylt)

What do you make of this?


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Mark Nash

 2005/11/23 9:55Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
“I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” (Psa. 2:7, KJVS)

The doctrine of the Trinity holds the idea that the Son was eternally generated from the Father. However, this scripture above says "this day have I begotten thee." This implies a specific moment in time.


mmm? I wondered when we might get around to this? :-) I am not sure that I am 'orthodox' on this one. The quoted verse is used in the New Testament in different contexts. eg“God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.” (Acts 13:33, KJVS) Here the 'specific moment' seems to be Christ's resurrection.

Whereas in... “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?” (Heb. 1:3-5, KJVS) ...the 'specific moment' seems to be the ascension.

The whole concept of 'eternal generation' is something of an oxymoron. It is the concept of an 'eternal beginning' which I find a little difficult to handle! Either it has a beginning and is thus not-eternal or it is eternal and therefore has no beginning. There may be others who have fathomed this, but not me, not yet.

My explanation, not of the orthodox trinitarian view, but of scriptural references to 'this day have a begotten you' is that Biblical terms are not always used in a biological sense but in a relationship sense. There was a thread, way back, on [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=673&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]firstborn son[/url] where I tried to explain my understanding on this. I regard the phrase from Ps 2 as signifying a 'specific moment' when God declared the status of His only Son. The 'only Son' sets Him apart as absolutely unique from any other 'son'. I have wondered whether the pattern for this comes from Gen. 22:2 (KJVS) And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gen. 22:12 (KJVS) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me....in spite of the fact that Ishmael had already been born. The Hebrew word here is "yaw-kheed'yaw-kheed´; from 3161; properly, united, i.e. sole; by implication, beloved; also lonely; (feminine) the life (as not to be replaced):—darling, desolate, only (child, son), solitary. The sense of absolute uniqueness rather than any reference to biology or to numbers in the family. You can check my theory out by looking at the other times this word is used; (Gen. 22:2,12,16; Judg. 11:34; Psa. 22:20; 25:16; 35:17; 68:6; Prov. 4:3; Jer. 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zech. 12:10) The Ps 22:20 verse is particularly poignant where the KJV translates it 'darling'“Deliver my soul from the sword; my [u]darling[/u] from the power of the dog.” (Psa. 22:20, KJVS)
...and where Darby has...
“Deliver my soul from the sword; my [u]only one[/u] from the power of the dog;” (Psa. 22:20, DRBY)

In Romans Paul contrasts the human origin and the divine declaration: “concerning his Son (come of David’s seed according to flesh, marked out Son of God in power, according to [the] Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of [the] dead) Jesus Christ our Lord;” (Rom. 1:3-4, DRBY) Darby's parantheses make life a little difficult here but the point is that Christ was 'the Son of David' as regards His human designation, but has been plainly designated (not re-designated) as 'the Son of God' by the event of the resurrection. The resurrection of Christ did not 'make him' the Son of God but clearly 'set him apart' as God's Son. I do not believe that this event was one in which 'the only begotten Son of God was made the firstborn Son of God' which is the phrase used by Witness Lee in his commentary on this verse. In effect, the Resurrection, "said" 'Thou art my son, this day have I made plain your unique relationship to me.'

I rather think the orthodox trinitarian statement here may have got into an oxymoron. There is, however, a key 'specific moment' in John's gospel. John has been using the imperfect tense to convey the eternity of his opening statement. From the very beginning the Word already 'was'; “In the beginning [u]was[/u] the Word, and the Word was [u]with[/u] God, and the Word [u]was[/u] God. The same [u]was[/u] in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him [u]was[/u] life; and the life [u]was[/u] the light of men.” (John 1:1-4, KJVS) This is just the imperfect tense of the verb 'estai' to exist. There is no 'specific moment' here, just eternal existence; in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God; eternal relationship, and the Word was God; eternal divinity; this mystery we call Trinity. But when John gets to verse 14 he declaresand the Word [u]became[/u] flesh... he switches to the Aorist tense to indicate a 'specific moment'. There is no 'becoming' in the early verses to describe the Word but the incarnation is a 'becoming' and one in which God is able to 'declare' the identity of His [u]only[/u] Son.

Let's hear what the other Trinitarians have to offer...


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Ron Bailey

 2005/11/23 10:19Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

I would have to say that I agree with your entire post.

I wonder, does this mean that the Word became God's Son when born into flesh, or was the Word considered to be God's Son before becoming flesh?

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/23 11:48Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

This might be helpfull:

http://www.gty.org.uk/articles/sonship2A.htm


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/11/23 12:08Profile





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