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beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Graftedbranch,

Quote:
We have to distinguish between the spirit of man which is the product of the breath of God in creation (Genesis 2) and the Spirit of God Himself. Man has a spirit. Man's spirit is not God.



This is the answer I had as well.

Thank you,

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/17 9:35Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Blake,

What gives you the impression that we do not pray to Jesus? Did not Steven do such as he was being stoned to death?

And they stoned Stephen, [u]calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit[/u]. (Acts 7:59)

There are some misconceptions at the foundation, but I'm not sure what they all are. I appreciate your humility towards us in this conversation. I am bewildered that such a demonstration of scripture has been handily written off. It seems you are locked into a mindset that will not allow you to believe God exists as a Trinity no matter how much evidence is leveled. Something seems to be telling you it is a lie, and I'm not sure what that would be. I have greatly wondered at how deeply this fixation against the Trinity exists. The whole idea of Trinity seems to be 'ruled out' in spite of the evidence. It is off the table and branded as a 'lie'. What has done this? It would be interesting to know more about your background if you wanted to share it as I am by no means worn out in this conversation.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/17 10:12Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
What gives you the impression that we do not pray to Jesus? Did not Steven do such as he was being stoned to death?



Surely we pray to the Lord Jesus. We are saved by calling on His Name. We are also saved daily from our sins, self, satan, and the world by calling on Him all the time.

He is our indwelling Lord and Saviour. He is not only on the throne in His resurrected body of flesh and bones, but He is within us as the Life Giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45.)

We call on Him recognizing that we are in Him and He is in us. And that He indwells us in our regenerated spirit. It is in calling on Him that His life flows within us and transforms us.

Even when we come to the Bible we need to call on the Lord acknowleging our dependance on Him and His availability within us as the Spirit, that through the word we are sanctified and something of God in Christ is communicated into us.

I enjoyed this word this morning in my daily devotional:

"By taking the Word in this way, we have the clear conviction that something of the Lord has been wrought into us. This is not the mere knowledge... It is the reality of the Triune God living, moving, working, and separating us. Every morning we can touch the living Word and have the divine reality infused into our being. In this way the Triune God is transfused into us." He is in our spirit but He desires to spread Himself into our soul and to sanctify us wholy with His Divine Life.

______

Paul in Colosians 1:25,26, tells us that "Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God, which was given to me to complete the Word of God, The mystery, hidden from the ages... Which is Christ in you, the hope of Glory"

The completing of the Word of God is the revelation of this Mystery hidden from the ages. And this completing Word is concerning "Christ in you, the hope of Glory"

The indwelling Christ is the consumation and completion of the Gospel. And it is our enjoyment of and experience of this Christ who is within us that is the core of all the epistles to the churches which are the local expressions of the body of Christ.

This is the heart and completion of the gospel, the Word of God. We should practice to call on Him all the time. When we call, "Lord Jesus", we get the Person. He is within us and He responds within us when we call on His Name.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/17 10:54Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Robert,

Quote:
What has done this?



My brother, the answer is Christ. I know you probably don't believe me, and that is okay. I do not doubt that you belong to Christ, and that you are my brother. However, because we are brothers, it does bother me that we disagree and I have asked Christ that we all should agree. However, He will not let me accept the trinity. What can I do but resign this to Him? We are His sheep, and while we don't always understand His ways, He is our shepard. I will do what He asks, and if I should err, I trust that He steer me right again.

Quote:
It would be interesting to know more about your background if you wanted to share it as I am by no means worn out in this conversation.



Ask me anything, and I will tell. You may read my testimony in the "Miracles that follow the plow" section.

Quote:
I am bewildered that such a demonstration of scripture has been handily written off.



I hope you don't mean to say that I am writing off scripture, as though I am not accepting the truth therein. For that I assure you is not the case. Have I not shown you everything I have said to be true with scripture? By what in scripture am I dismissing?

Quote:
What gives you the impression that we do not pray to Jesus?



I did not think that you do not pray to Jesus. I don't think believing in the Trinity necessarily keeps a person from coming to Jesus, or interrupts thier relationship. It really doesn't matter what we think about God, for that is not where our belief lies anyway. What matters is what is in our heart. Many times we may think we know what we believe, but it really is not shown to be true until we are placed in extreme circumstances. For example, when Jesus returns, some will say, "Lord, Lord" and He will reply, "I do not know you." These people may say they believe and even think that they do, but it is not truly what is in thier heart. I do believe persecution is a good indicator of this, for anyone willing to suffer for Christ, or willing to die for Christ, is truly one who believes by heart.

What I mean by this is that there are many people who are lost that refuse to pray to Jesus because they don't believe He is God. The Trinity says Jesus is God, but still claims that Jesus is a seperate person from God. If a person who accepts the trinity as being true never prays to Jesus because they believe that Jesus is seperate from the Father, then how could that person be saved?

I have heard many people say they are Christian, but also say that it is wrong to pray to Jesus. They say, "Jesus is not the Father. Jesus said specifically in the model prayer to pray like this, 'Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.'"

If Jesus is not the Father, then this one prayer is completely changed. It suggests that we are not supposed to pray to Jesus, but rather, the Father who is a seperate person. On top of that, what is the name of the Father? How do we hallow it if we don't know it?

The truth is that Jesus is the Father. We are calling God our Father because it is an expression of intimacy and honor, and because we are born of Him. We were born of Adam, but now we are born of Christ, the second Adam. We then say, "hallowed be thy name," because we are saying, "Honor be to the name of God." The name of God is Jesus Christ. It is only name under Heaven by which people can be saved. By saying "hallowed be they name", we are showing our devotion to Christ, and giving honor to His name. We are saying that we want Christ to have the glory and honor that God should have.

I know there exists a trinity in God. But that trinity is not three persons. The trinity of God is this: God, His Word, and His Wisdom. These are not three seperate persons, and they are not seperate in any way. They are not modes or faces of God. They are not parts of God. They are ___________. This is the mystery. There is no way for us to understand exactly what the distinction each of these are in relation to God, except to trust God when He says that He is one. We cannot explain how it is possible that the Word, who was God, was able to come to earth in flesh and blood and die. All we can do is trust in what we know to be true: Jesus is God and man.

We know Christ came to earth as a man for that is the testimony of the bible. It has also been proven by other historical documents. However, for us to believe Jesus Christ is Lord takes a leap of faith. We have to cry out to Him. Once Christ saves us, then we know without a doubt He is Lord. We then become a testimony to Christ because we share in His death on the cross. (This I believe is what Jesus meant by saying He has the testimony of the Father for the Father chose each one of us. He especially chose the matyrs whose blood was spilled for Christ, to be His special testimony.)

Anyway, my heart cries for all the lost souls who fail to come to Christ because of all the lies of the Devil. My heart cries for the division in the body of Christ due to the lies of the Devil. I eagerly await the day of Christ's return and we are united as one with Him.

Thank you Robert, also, for your humility in our discussions.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/17 12:12Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Blake, I asked you some questions a while back but I don't think you really tried to answer them, you posted a post discussing what a person is etc. when none of my questions mentioned the word person.

Here they are again:

1. Do you believe God is one?

2. Do you believe God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

3. If yes to the above question do you believe that the Father speaks to the Son, the Father speaks to the Holy Spirit, the Son speaks to the Holy Spirit, and vica-versa?

4. If yes to the above question do you believe that God is talking to "Himself" (i.e. like we would) or that God is talking to God?

5. Do you believe the Bible reveals that God is one and that God is also three in one?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/11/18 3:19Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I wish to demonstrate again the distinction between the Father and the Son within the Godhead from Hebrews 5 and the opening salutations of the epistles. First we read:


And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. (Hebrews 5:4, 5)

We read first concerning the priesthood after the ‘order’ of Melchezidek that as with the Aaronic priesthood, [i]no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God[/i], so also [i] Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. [/i] In this case we have again the Father distinct from the Son bestowing the honor of the priesthood upon Him. If “no man taketh this honor unto Himself”, then it is impossible that one could be ‘self-appointed’ to the position of Great High priest. If the Son were also the Father then Christ had appointed Himself to the position.

Moreover, we have encapsulated within this passage another truth concerning the Father speaking to the Son, “Thou art my Son”, which clearly identifies them as individual persons.

It is important also to note that the opening salutations of Paul’s writings consistently demonstrate distinction between the Father and Son,

Paul, a servant of [u]Jesus Christ[/u], called to be an apostle, separated unto the [u]gospel of God[/u], (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) [u]Concerning his Son Jesus Christ[/u] our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (Romans 1:1-3)


Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, [u]and[/u] from the Lord Jesus Christ. (I Corinthians 1:1-3)


Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, [u]and[/u] from the Lord Jesus Christ. (II Corinthians 1: 1,2)


Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, [u]and[/u] God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) (Galatians 1:1)


Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, [u]and[/u] from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:1,2)

Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, [u]and[/u] from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:1,2)

[u]All of Paul’s letters contain a similar salutation. [/u]

Peter takes this a step further including the Holy Spirit in his first epistle:

Elect according to the foreknowledge of [u]God the Father[/u], through sanctification of [u]the Spirit[/u], unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of [u]Jesus Christ[/u]: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the [u]God and Father[/u] of our Lord [u]Jesus Christ[/u], which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (I Peter 1)

In each of these occasions a clear distinction is made between the Father and Son as well as the Spirit in Peter's opening salutation. Paul's closing salutation to II Corinthians is particularly telling:

The grace of the Lord [u]Jesus Christ[/u], and [u]the love of God[/u], and the communion of [u]the Holy Ghost[/u], be with you all. Amen.


The Greek word for communion in this passage is [i]Koinonia[/i], which means 'fellowship.' That is particularly indicative of 'personhood'. One could not have fellowship with a 'force' or a 'power'.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/18 10:28Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
If anything, it makes it that much more meaningful. What is a greater act of love, to give your son unto death who is a seperate person from you, or to give yourself?

God gave Himself to us. This is the ultimate act of love.
beenBlake 2005/11/16



Quote:
It is really quite silly to argue over what is a greater act of love. Whether either one is greater, we cannot know God's love until we have the Spirit living inside of us. And so, it is really a mute point which is greater. What matters most is that we know in our heart that God loves us, because Christ lives in our heart.
 beenBlake 2005/11/17



which of these is your position, Blake?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/18 10:44Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The Greek word for communion in this passage is Koinonia, which means 'fellowship.' That is particularly indicative of 'personhood'. One could not have fellowship with a 'force' or a 'power'.


“And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were [u]partners[/u] with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.” (Luke 5:10, KJVS)The word translated 'partners' here is 'koinOnos'. It is used in a variety of ways in the KJVMatt. 23:30 (KJVS) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been [u]partakers[/u] with them in the blood of the prophets.
Luke 5:10 (KJVS) And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were [u]partners[/u] with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.
1Cor. 10:18 (KJVS) Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices [u]partakers[/u] of the altar?
1Cor. 10:20 (KJVS) But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have [u]fellowship[/u] with devils.
2Cor. 1:7 (KJVS) And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are [u]partakers[/u] of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
2Cor. 8:23 (KJVS) Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my [u]partner[/u] and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.
Philem. 17 (KJVS) If thou count me therefore a [u]partner[/u], receive him as myself.
Heb. 10:33 (KJVS) Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became [u]companions[/u] of them that were so used.
1Pet. 5:1 (KJVS) The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a [u]partaker[/u] of the glory that shall be revealed:
2Pet. 1:4 (KJVS) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be [u]partakers[/u] of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. but, as Robert says, each one of these demands a relationship which cannot exist without distinguishable identities. Prepositions 'demand' at least two parties, so does 'fellowship/partnership'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/18 10:54Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I wish also to demonstrate the use of the definite articles along with 'name' being in the singular:

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the [i]name[/i] of [u]the[/u] Father, and of [u]the[/u] Son, and of [u]the[/u] Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19)

R. Reymond observes:

"Jesus does not say:

(1) ‘into the names [plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,’ or what is its virtual equivalent,

(2) ‘into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and into the name of the Holy Spirit,’ as if we had to deal with three separate Beings. Nor does He say,

(3) ‘into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,’ (omitting the three recurring articles), as if ‘the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost’ might be taken as merely three designations of a single person.

What He does say is this:

(4) ‘into the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,’ first asserting the unity of the three by combining them all within the bounds of the single Name, and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article."


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/18 11:26Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
which of these is your position, Blake?



Oooo....a low blow below the belt. I thought you played fair. They are both my positions, I do not contract either one.

God gave His son to us. God's son is God's Word. God's Word is God. They are inseperable. They are undividable. They are not individual.

The reason Jesus is called God's son is because Jesus was born. He was born of a human mother. This does not make Him a seperate person from the Father. Rather, Jesus is the express image of the Father. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father.

By Jesus dying on the cross, God gave Himself to us. Or you could say God gave His son. In our world, that is impossible. Your son is a seperate person from you. And yet, whatever your son does before a certain age, you are held accountable for. Even still, your son is a seperate person from you, and when the time of judgement comes, you will not be held accountable for your son's actions.

Jesus, however, is not a seperate person from the Father. If you say He is, then you are saying He is a seperate God. Do you believe in one God or three?

I will try to explain this better later,
although, I don't suppose you would accept it anymore than I would accept what you are saying.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/18 17:04Profile





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