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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Woman like the man is fallen and has Adam's sinful nature. but Like the fact that the man determins the sex of the baby. so also the sinful fallen nature is communicated throuh the man. A baby born of the union of the man and woman even if it is a female is fallen. but One who is born of the woman alone evidntly does not have the fallen nature. Christ is born of a woman.

This is an enormous presumption. Do you have biblical evidence for saying that sin is transmitted through the male line?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/16 16:22Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Robert,

Quote:
If they had no relationship then the whole passage in John 3:16 has no real meaning.



By saying that God gave Himself unto death in order that we may have eternal life strips the scripture of all meaning?

If anything, it makes it that much more meaningful. What is a greater act of love, to give your son unto death who is a seperate person from you, or to give yourself?

God gave Himself to us. This is the ultimate act of love. God gave Himself to us. God loved us first. He gave Himself to us first, so that we would in turn give ourselves to Him. How can you not see this?

Jesus is Lord.

Jesus is the son of God and the son of man. What this means is that Jesus is God and Jesus is man. Am I the only one who believes this?

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/16 16:36Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Blake,

Quote:
What is a greater act of love, to give your son unto death who is a seperate person from you, or to give yourself?



This is where I see is the difference in what we are saying. For a Trinitarian it is [u]both[/u] God the Father giving His Son, [i]and[/i] God the Son giving Himself. So it is not either or, it is both.

We would agree that God gave Himself; where we are not in agreement is that God gave His only begotten Son. You affirm God gave Himself, but not His Son as the second person of the Godhead, I affirm both. This is because I believe in both the Deity of the Father and Son. This allows me to appreciate the Love of the Father and the Son together, yet distinct. Hence, I can thank both God the Father for sending His Only Begotten Son [u]and[/u] thank Christ for dying for my sin.

Make sense?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/16 16:44Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Robert,

Quote:
The unity of the persons is shown in saying, I and my Father are one, yet this is not one person, but one substance.



In the scripture you gave, the Pharisees did not think that. They said, "because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." If they had thought Jesus was a seperate person from God, then why would they have accused Him of this?

The argument you have presented about two witnesses almost has me persuaded. Even still, it says, "the testimony of two men is true."

Even if you believe God is three seperate persons, I doubt you would say God is two men. (Although, when you say God is three persons, you are in fact saying God is three men. Look up the Hebrew word "Nephesh." In the above scripture, the greek word "Anthropos" is used where it says "man.")

As we know God lived on earth as one man, and that man is Jesus Christ. And so, what could Jesus have meant by the above scriptures? How could the Father possibly act as a second testimony, the second man? How is that possible?

This is my explanation.

The testimony of Christ is that He is the Christ. Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus is God.

Jesus said that His works testify of Him. "for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me,"

Obviously, His works testify to being God. What else does?

Revelation 20:4 (NLT)
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus, for proclaiming the word of God. And I saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I will take this to the Lord and pray over this some more. I await the day we all come into agreement.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/16 17:10Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
If anything, it makes it that much more meaningful. What is a greater act of love, to give your son unto death who is a seperate person from you, or to give yourself?

God gave Himself to us. This is the ultimate act of love. God gave Himself to us.

I think perhaps Blake, that you have never lost a son.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/16 17:27Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I think perhaps Blake, that you have never lost a son.


Hi Ron, I agree with you, seeing someone you love go through pain is much much worse than going through the pain yourself, let alone losing them.

The Father and the Holy Spirit love the Son with a greater love than anyone can imagine, and it is amazing to think that God now loves us with the same love. (John 17:23) :eek: :knockedout:


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/11/17 2:17Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
I think perhaps Blake, that you have never lost a son.



I can't say that I have. Although, I have lost someone I loved deeply.

It is really quite silly to argue over what is a greater act of love. Whether either one is greater, we cannot know God's love until we have the Spirit living inside of us. And so, it is really a mute point which is greater. What matters most is that we know in our heart that God loves us, because Christ lives in our heart.

All that I was trying to establish is that in love, we give ourselves to our object of love. To give anything seperate from us is to express that initial giving of ourselves.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/17 8:32Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Blake,

Quote:
Even if you believe God is three seperate persons, I doubt you would say God is two men. (Although, when you say God is three persons, you are in fact saying God is three men. Look up the Hebrew word "Nephesh." In the above scripture, the greek word "Anthropos" is used where it says "man.")



I understand that. Yet, keep in mind this is not [u]my[/u] appeal it was Christ's. If I had it wrong it means He has it wrong. The passage does not specifically say 'men'. Here He made the appeal to Deuteronomy 19:15b:

...at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

He had the witness of Himself and also He appealed to the miracles that were taking place by [i]the Finger of God[/i], which is a metaphor for the Dunamis of God. This is stacking up the Father's testimony. He also was appealing to the voice from Heaven which the Disciples heard when they were with Him in the Holy Mount. This is why Peter writes:

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from [u]God the Father[/u] honour and glory, when there came such a [u]voice to him[/u] from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (II Peter 1:16, 17)

This is Peter's testimony to the majesty of Christ in that he appeals to the voice of God the Father from Heaven as authoritative. This, to the Hebrews was known as a 'bath kol' and was authoritative until the days of the Rabbi's. These are clear testimonies that solidify our belief in the Deity of Christ. Hence, to blur the Father and Son is to eradicate the testimony of the Father and call into question Christ's deity as it is established in part by the Father's testimony.






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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/17 9:07Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
You cannot say that Adam lived in the flesh and was dead in the Spirit. For these two scriptures indicate clearly that if God was to withdraw His breath, death would surely come:



We have to distinguish between the spirit of man which is the product of the breath of God in creation (Genesis 2) and the Spirit of God Himself. Man has a spirit. Man's spirit is not God.

Zechariah tells us that "God streached forth the heavens, laid the foundations of the earth and formed the spirit of man within him." All acts of creation.

Romans 8:16 says, "The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God," clearly distinguishing our spirit from the Divine Spirit.

When God created Adam he was placed before the Tree of Life. Adam had a human spirit which is akin to God and created by God to contain God. But Adam never ate of the Tree of LIfe which speaks of the Eternal Life of God.

Adam never had God within him. Adam never had the divine LIfe. He had only the created human life. In choosing to eat of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, Adam chose the way of independance.
His spirit died and he was barred from eating the tree of Life (Genesis 3:22-24)

Fallen man has a spirit but it is dead and separated from the Life of God. Man's spirit is dead to God. IT is for all practical purposes disfunctional. MAn lives by his fallen soul life. HIs mind, will, and emothions which are enslaved to his fallen flesh. This is the condition of man.

Men aren't even aware of thier spirit till the Spirit of God broods upon the surface of the Deep and through the Gospel, and through Christ's redemption, the Spirit quickens, enlivens, and regenerates our fallen dead spirit and then indwells it as the Tree of Life bringing the Life of God into us. A condition Adam never knew.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/17 9:13Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Robert and everyone,

Quote:
Hence, I can thank both God the Father for sending His Only Begotten Son and thank Christ for dying for my sin.



It does make sense. In my mind, though you seem to have a different perspective, you believe in three Gods.

I believe that Jesus is the father, and thus, the God I worship is the very one who died for my sins. When I reach Heaven, I will not be bowing down to one God, and then turning to bow to another. I will bow down to one God, whom will be God over all, and be all in all. The name of this one God is Jesus Christ.

Quote:
but, what I believe you are confusing here is 'substance' and 'person'.



There is no confusion here. To say God is three persons and one substance is an impossibility. A person is one of an individual substance. How is it then possible to have a God who is three individual substances, and one substance?

There is no biblical basis for saying God is three persons. The word "person" comes from the Latin word "persona." If you accept that God is three "personas" or three personalities, then you are agreeing with modalism. You are saying God has three faces. If you say God is three "persons" but not three "personas", then you are saying that God is three individuals, which means individual substance. Humans are called persons because each human has an individual substance called a "soul."

To say God is three persons is to say that God is three Gods who share one _____________. You can't say one body, for if you say body then you are saying God has three faces. You can't say they share one essence, for that is saying God is like a council of three people who share one mission.

How is it possible that God can be three seperate persons in one substance? Your reply to this was to say that this is the great mystery of the trinity. It is not a mystery. It is just not true.

The great mystery of our faith as established in 1 Tim 3:16 is simple: How is it possible that God came to earth as a man, died, and was resurrected?

The trinity attempts to answer this great mystery by seperating God into three persons.

I cannot accept this proposition when I know the truth:
Jesus is Lord. More specifically, Jesus is my Lord. He is my God. He is my Father. He is my everything.

Jesus is my root, and I am His branch. Jesus is my Shepard, and I am one of His sheep. Jesus is my Redeemer. Jesus is my Savior. Jesus is my King. Jesus is Judge. Jesus is the alpha and omega. Jesus is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords. Jesus is the great Counselor. Jesus is the truth, the life, and the way. Jesus Christ lives inside of me, directs my path, watches over me, gives me life, and cares for my needs. Jesus is my everything. I have devoted and given my entire life to Him. I have left nothing for myself.

Jesus is the express image of God, and to worship Jesus, and to pray to Jesus, is to pray to God.

It is so very important that people know that they need to pray to Jesus. For there is no other name in Heaven or on earth by which a person may be saved. There are so many people lost people out there that do not know the true God, Jesus Christ, because they think Jesus is seperate from the Father. Every night they pray to the father, without knowing that it is Jesus who can save them. They do not know that we cannot call God our father, until we know Jesus. Anyone who does not know Jesus is an enemy of God.

My mother is a person who was vicitim to this mentality. For so long she knew the gospel, and she knew of Jesus. However, she never prayed to Jesus. Three weeks ago, she called out to Jesus for the first time in her life. She called out broken and humbled crying to Christ for help. And this He did. Now, my mother who suffered immensely at the hands of the Devil for so many years, has been saved. Praise the Lord!!! It brings tears to my eyes everytime I think of it.

The only reason she was never saved is because she never prayed to Jesus. She never called out to Jesus. Why would she? Jesus is a seperate person from the father.

I held the same story. The only thing that kept me from coming to Christ was the lie that Jesus is not God. Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is not the one whom we should pray to or worship. Jesus is not the one who saves us, it is the Father. This is wrong.

There is power in the name of Jesus Christ. It is in the name of Christ that all good works are done. We are called Christians. We have the great privledge of being called by God's name.

I cannot be a part of the lie that God is three seperate persons. God is not. He is one person. The Lord is Jesus Christ.

I do not wish to be standing before God in Heaven trying to explain to Him how the trinity seemed to make sense to me, even though I knew it was not true. I do not want the blood of many to be on my hands for spreading such lies.

I am sorry, my brothers, but I cannot agree with you. I would like to be united with you on this, but I cannot.

I love you just the same, and I believe God is with each of you. I pray that though we may not be united in doctrine, that we may be united in love, overlooking each other's faults, and realizing that we are all one under Christ.

May Christ direct our paths,
In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/17 9:25Profile





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