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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Blake,

Quote:
Jesus bears the blood of Adam in His viens. He is a descendant of Abraham, and King David. He had real human blood in Him, and not just any blood, but the very [u]tainted[/u] blood that came from Adam.



By 'tainted' do you mean tainted with original or congenital sin?

Quote:
Jesus was born into sin just as we all were.



And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and [i]in him[/i] is [u]no[/u] sin. (I John 3:5)

Quote:
Jesus was without sin. He carried this blood of ours, this spoiled blood, and made it clean by fulfilling the law.



Jesus was tempted in all points like as we are yet without sin. The temptations did not originate from [u]within[/u] as would a person under Adam. Those in Adam are subject to "The Sin" which entered the human race through Adam. Christ was clean from 'the Sin' and was tempted not from 'within' but from 'without'. (ed) Christ and Adam were tempted [i]directly[/i] by the Devil. Those in Adam need no such external temptations as they are shot through with Sin.

It is very important to understand that Christ was not in Adam- Christ was the [i]second[/i] Adam. He was in effect a restart for the whole of the Human Race for those who are in Him. The Born Again are in the Body of Christ and have the Holy Spirit; those who are the children of disobedience have that same disobedient spirit and are in what is now "our old man" ('Our' being those who are Born Again).


Quote:
He carried this blood of ours, this spoiled blood, and made it clean by fulfilling the law.



This is impossible. Only the shedding of Christ's blood could cleanse from Sin and that blood had to be sinless blood as of a lamb without spot or blemish. Abel's blood cried out for revenge. If Christ had Adam's blood it had cried revenge also.

Moreover, you could no sooner cleanse tainted blood with obedience than you could make heaven by the works of the law. That would be Palagianism. Sin is a stain that has to be cleansed by a perfect sacrifice. Man's problem is more than disobedience- it is that he is dead in tresspasses and sins. Christ was not born dead in trespasses and sins or He had needed to be Born Again himself. A man born in Original Sin simply cannot take away Sin.

Again, as Ron so rightly pointed out a correct view of the Trinity is essential to understanding God's redemptive purpose. I suspect he will take this up and explain it in greater detail than I have here, but hopefully this post will help open up some of the soteriological issues.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/14 11:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
He has retained the JW dislike for the word while rejecting their solution to the problem.


Here again, this statement offends me for He is spreading lies about me. I love Jesus and I love the scriptures. By what basis do you make such accusations against me? What have I said or done that makes you think I have "dislike for the word"?


You realise, I trust, that in the above quote the 'word' I am referring to is Trinity?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/14 14:25Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Robert,

There was no sin in Jesus, and if by my post you thought I was suggesting such, I apologize. All you say is correct, but it does not consider the whole picture.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJ)
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Quote:
It is very important to understand that Christ was not in Adam- Christ was the second Adam. He was in effect a restart for the whole of the Human Race for those who are in Him.



Yes, this I know. However, in addition to this, you must know that Jesus died and was resurrected. Jesus became the second Adam not by His birth into flesh and blood, but by His resurrection into new life. It is by faith in His death and resurrection, not His birth, that we are made righteous.

Acts 13:32-33(NASB)
32 "And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, `YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'

Why would God say of Jesus, "Today I have begotten you" in His resurrection? Did not God say, "This is my son" when Jesus was baptized?

Jesus became all of sin. He became our sin. Why do you think Jesus said, "Why have you forsaken me?" Was the pain too much to bear for God? No! God is not weak. He could not bear to look upon His son because of all the sin in Him.

Jesus was not just a substitute. Jesus bore our sin. He carried it for us. He took our yoke and our burdens. Jesus became our sin, and our sin was completely done away with on the cross. How could Jesus be our sin, if He was not born of man?

Quote:
Quote:
He carried this blood of ours, this spoiled blood, and made it clean by fulfilling the law.

This is impossible. Only the shedding of Christ's blood could cleanse from Sin and that blood had to be sinless blood as of a lamb without spot or blemish. Abel's blood cried out for revenge. If Christ had Adam's blood it had cried revenge also.



Matthew 5:17 (NLT)
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them.

Did Jesus take away our sin by abolishing the law? No! Jesus took away our sins by fulfilling the law. Did not the law say we must make an atonement for our sins? Jesus fullfilled the law by becoming the sacrifice which was a requirement of the law.

1 Timothy 3:16a (NLT)
Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ appeared in the flesh and was shown to be righteous by the Spirit.

Jesus did not become righteous by living up to the law. Jesus was already righteous by Spirit. Rather, Jesus fullfilled all the law required making atonement for our sins. Only God is good. (Luke 18:19) And so, only God could fullfill the law.

Jesus died, and we died with Jesus. We died to the law and sin. Praise the Lord, Jesus was raised! If Jesus had not been raised, our faith would be for not. What would we have faith in? We are given new life in the resurrection, not in the death.

Jesus was raised to new life. He is the firstborn Son. He is the first to be born again. And all those who believe in Him may also be born again, just as He was. Jesus did not need to be born again. He did not need to die. However, He gave His life for us. He did this for us.

If you say that Christ was not born of man, if He did not bear the blood of His mother Mary, then how could any of the promises of the old testament be fullfilled?

For Jesus to be a descendant of Abraham, He could not just be born out of Mary's womb, but also of Abraham's blood. Jesus was just as much a man as He was God. Was He not?

Maybe I am wrong, and Jesus was born completely of God and was entirely a new creation from His birth. But if that were so, then why would He call Himself the son of man?

Jesus was son of man and son of God. This is not to say that His blood was imperfect or that He was not righteous or that He was not good. But merely to say that Jesus was in fact born of flesh and suffered all the temptations of the flesh that we do.

Hebrews 4:15 (KJ)
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/14 14:37Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
You realise, I trust, that in the above quote the 'word' I am referring to is Trinity?



Yes, yes, I already admitted to that mistake. You will have to catch up. I hope your weekend went well.

Thanks,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/14 14:44Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I'm just bringing this to the top again.


_________________
D.Miller

 2005/11/14 21:01Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It is a mystery but the true scritpural doctrine is not modalism nor is it tritheism. There is One God, not three and the One God is Triune.

In our experience we have to say that though we have the Spirit, we also have Christ. And in Christ we also have the Father. Yet the experience of the indwelling God is just one. We do not have three Gods within us. We have One God and we have the Spirit, the Son and the Father.


graftedbranc, just want to say that I am appreciating your contrtibutions to this thread.

dohzman, you don't need to 'bring it to the top', Jeremy has 'stickied it' which will keep it prominant until he (as a moderator) judges it has served its purpose.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/15 4:27Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Blake,
yes, I am catching up...

Quote:
Jesus bears the blood of Adam in His viens. He is a descendant of Abraham, and King David. He had real human blood in Him, and not just any blood, but the very tainted blood that came from Adam. Jesus was born into sin just as we all were. This is how Jesus was able to carry our sins onto the cross.

Quote:
Yes, this I know. However, in addition to this, you must know that Jesus died and was resurrected. Jesus became the second Adam not by His birth into flesh and blood, but by His resurrection into new life. It is by faith in His death and resurrection, not His birth, that we are made righteous.

Blake, I don't want to divert to the topic of incarnation, but Christ has 'no tainted blood in him' and was not 'born into sin just as we are'. This is another serious misunderstanding. It seems you not only misunderstand the nature of Christ's divinity but of His humanity too. I don't know why this has happened but something in your understanding of these things is deeply skewed.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/11/15 4:37Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

Quote:
It seems you not only misunderstand the nature of Christ's divinity but of His humanity too. I don't know why this has happened but something in your understanding of these things is deeply skewed.



While it is true that I am not right in everything, and I being but a man that is less than God, I do make mistakes. However, I have also been blessed. The Lord has revealed many things to me.

I am sorry that we cannot agree. And I am sorry that you feel my understanding of things is skewed. I could only hope that we could learn from each other and grow. I have learned much from you. The Lord has been working in your life, and I have been blessed by your deep understanding of scripture.

As far this topic on the incarnation. I know not of what scholars of generations past have said. However, let us review what scripture says on this matter.


Isaiah 11:1 (NLT)
Out of the stump of David's family will grow a shoot – yes, a new Branch bearing fruit from the old root.

John 7:42 (NLT)
For the Scriptures clearly state that the Messiah will be born of the royal line of David, in Bethlehem, the village where King David was born."

Acts 13:23 (NLT)
"And it is one of King David's descendants, Jesus, who is God's promised Savior of Israel!

Romans 1:3 (KJ)
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Philippians 2:7-8 (NLT)
7 He made himself nothing; F5 he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. F6 8 And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross.

Romans 8:3 (KJ)
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Revelation 22:16 (NLT)
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star."

Revelation 22:16 (KJ)
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The last scripture clearly indicates that Jesus is the "offspring" of David. Notice that Jesus says, "the root and the offspring." This clearly indicates that Jesus was not only born into family of David, He was a relative. In modern terminology: Jesus had the genes of David.

As a man Jesus was Holy, even from birth as established in the book of Luke. He was born without sin. He was righteous by the Spirit. However, Jesus was born "in the likeness of sinful flesh." Jesus, as a man, was like us in every way accept for one: He was without sin. He was born into our sinful flesh, and yet bore no sin.

Hebrews 2:14 (NLT)
Because God's children are human beings – made of flesh and blood – Jesus also became flesh and blood by being born in human form. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the Devil, who had the power of death.


If Jesus had not been born of our own flesh and blood, He could not die. Death is a result of sin. Jesus died, and thus, He had to have the same tainted flesh that we all bear. However, Jesus was without sin. In Him was no sin. How is that possible? It is only possible by God.

Only God has the power to accomplish such a thing. Only God is good. And so, for Jesus to be born into our flesh and blood, and yet be without sin (to be good), means that Jesus is God.

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJ)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Great is our God!

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/11/15 15:26Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Blake,

Quote:
He was born into our sinful flesh, and yet bore no sin.



What is sinful flesh? Is it the physical body or something else?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/15 15:54Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the rightousness of God in HIm

Christ came in the "likenss of the flesh of sin" but as Moses lifted up the brazen Serpent, which was in the likenss of the serpant. so Christ was in the Likness of the flesh of sin but without sin.

Just an opinion. Christ was born of a woman. The sin nature is communicated through the man, not the woman. Christ was born of a genuine human woman but without the taint of sin which is dirived from the man. "through one Man sin entered into the world and death by sin."

Woman like the man is fallen and has Adam's sinful nature. but Like the fact that the man determins the sex of the baby. so also the sinful fallen nature is communicated throuh the man. A baby born of the union of the man and woman even if it is a female is fallen. but One who is born of the woman alone evidntly does not have the fallen nature. Christ is born of a woman.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/16 0:14Profile





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