SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Quakers, old and new, and the 'inner light'

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 Next Page )
PosterThread
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Indeed the girls were twins, but they were not twins, they were triplets and their other sister was not invited to the program.



Then you lied when you answered yes to:

And I assume that the audience members mean a twin to be "One of [u]two[/u] offspring born at the same birth"?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/10/27 11:33Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Nasher,

The analogy only works if one is allowed to use the assumption you mentioned. Indeed there were [u]two[/u] offspring born at birth; what you are not told is that there is a third also.

Example:

If I have $50 in my pocket and you ask me if I have $5 and I say yes; then I have not lied to you. I [i]have[/i] [ed] told you the truth, but not the whole truth. Some things are on a need-to-know basis. It also demonstrates the limitations of yes and no answers during questioning.

Quote:
And I assume that the audience members mean a twin to be "One of two offspring born at the same birth"?



Since there [u]were[/u] two offspring born at birth they are twins; but because the audience did not imagine there could be a third offspring they answered the questions as they did and assumed an impossibility. And because of this the depth of their ability to conceive was insufficient to add one more word to their sentence that had surely given the riddle away.

And I assume that the audience members mean a twin to be "One of [u]only[/u] two offspring born at the same birth"?

Quote:
Then you [u]lied[/u] when you answered yes to:

And I assume that the audience members mean a twin to be "One of two offspring born at the same birth"?



And here stands the reason why we so desperately need the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. We don't know everything and we simply cannot make decisions based on our own finite perceptions in hope that everyone is telling us everything they know.

God Bless,

-Robert





_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/27 12:11Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Robert, you have twisted the meaning of "One of two"

The triplet is not one of two, but one of three.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/10/27 13:54Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Nasher,

I think to continue on would be unprofitable so I will relent and leave it at that and hope that the imperfect analogy has to some degree served the purpose of demonstrating that we are finite and must not lean to our own understanding. I heard that little riddle when I was in 7th grade and liked to have pulled my hair out (not literally).

In many cases when we go to make life decisions we don't even know what the variables are and try to make decisions not knowing that there is some sort of 'x' factor or any number of unfathomable variables.

The angel that announced the birth of Sampson asked the parents, “Why is it that you ask me my name seeing it is [i]Wonderful?[/i].” This word could be interpreted "beyond your comprehension." If an angels [u]name[/u] could be beyond our comprehension, how wonderful are the mysteries of God? My mind staggers and stumbles to understand how it could be that an angel would essentially tell these folks, "It would be futile to tell you my name- because you wouldn't comprehend it anyhow."


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/27 14:20Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
I don't mean by that 'going forward at a meeting'. I think Fox has much to say to our doctrinal evangelicalism but I think he was right on the edge of a wrong 'ultimate authority'.


Getting back to the "inner-light" I know one of the reasonings behind the wording that George Fox uses is that the Holy Spirit revealed truth and namely the truth of Jesus Christ by direct revelation. Only one in scripture does God use His own finger to write words (the 10 commandments). Other then that the Spirit speaks to the prophets and those that would hear the prophets speaking.

This type of communication was verbal and was carried on for a long time. God would at times tell prophets to write down what is said into a scroll. But it behoves us not just to read these things but to listen and hear from the Spirit that spoke them. Being the Spirit of God. This wording can seem very open and many jump on it with other sort of revelations and new age thinking. But I think that we need to genuinely hear from the Holy Spirit, And yes God will primarily use His word in this.

Personally my safeguard is the word of God, if an interpretation of scripture from a (spirit) is contray to the word of God then I will reject it. But we have to take in part also that many things said can be the [b]fuller[/b] meaning of scripture. The spiritual meaning of scripture.

I think you are right Ron that Fox at some levels was digging down to get to the person and reality of communion with Christ (His Spirit).


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/10/27 14:34Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
I think Fox has much to say to our doctrinal evangelicalism but I think he was right on the edge of a wrong 'ultimate authority'.



I think John Fox was a genuine believer and was a reaction against the dead orthodoxy of his day. He knew the reality of the Spirit and preached in power and had a genuine knowlege of Christ.

Where he seems to have gotton off the mark is in the realization that the Spirit who "breathed out" the New Testament (And the Old) is the same Spirit who is within us who beleive. He Is the Very God Himself. And so the Word and the Spirit are one. That is the Written Word is the embodiment of the Spirit in words written.

In the Written Word we have the objective revelation of the "Faith once for all delivered to the Saints" but in the Spirit we have the Reality of this Truth which is embodied in the Word.

We need both. The Word without the Spirit is dead letters. The Spirit without the Word is ethereal and subjective. The Spirit works in us through the Word. "Sanctify them in the Truth, Thy Word is Truth" (John 17:17)

The Spirit rides best in His own Chariot - Joseph Carroll.


I like this quote which I believe is balanced:

"When we come to the divine Word, nearly our whole being is involved. We must come with a heart which seeks after God, with a clear, sober mind, and with an open spirit. If we open our spirit to God and to His Word, we can touch God Himself behind the printed page. It is not just a matter of reading with our eyes, understanding with our mind, or seeking with our heart; it is also a matter of touching God in our spirit. If we exercise our whole being in this way, we not only receive a revelation, but some divine element revealed and conveyed by His Word will be transmitted into our spirit. So, Ephesians 6:17-18 says that we have to "receive...the word of God, by means of all prayer and petition..." We should take the word of the Bible not only by reading and studying, but also "by means of all prayer." We should read and study the Bible prayerfully; that is, we must exercise our spirit to contact the Lord by prayer with the reading of the divine Word."

Life Study of Genesis

Graftedbranch

 2005/12/6 1:45Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Graftedbranch's

Quote:
... the Written Word is the embodiment of the Spirit in words written.

This would give the scriptures the same status viz a viz the Spirit as we give Jesus of Nazareth viz a viz the Son. Do you really want to make the scriptures an incarnation of the Spirit?

I love the scriptures and spend my life in their study and proclamation but God is bigger than His book.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/12/7 13:09Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
This would give the scriptures the same status viz a viz the Spirit as we give Jesus of Nazareth viz a viz the Son. Do you really want to make the scriptures an incarnation of the Spirit?



Christ is the Word made flesh. The Scriptures are the written Word.

Christ in the flesh is God expressed in the flesh. The Scriptures are God in Christ expressed in the written Word.

The book is not God. But the words in the book are breathed out by God. That is they are the expression of God in written words.

The Spirit who breathed out these words is the Same Spirit of Christ who is within us who believe. And the Word's of the Scripture contain and express the revelation of the Person of the Word. They are One. The written Word testifies of the Living Word. The Written Word reveals the Living Word.

And through the written Word, the Spirit within us unveils the Living Word and communicates Him to us and into us. "He who eats Me shall live because of Me, My Words are Spirit and Life".

2 corinthians 3:15-16 says, "But to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their (the Jews) heart; But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

He then goes on to say in vs. 18 "But we all with unveiled face. beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit."

The veil is over the heart at the reading of Moses, (the written word). But whenever the heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

What veil? the one on the heart at the reading of the Word.

And when the veil is taken away and we Behold Him, reflect Him and are being transformed by the Spirit, Where is this revelation from? It is from the written Word.

The Spirit unveils Christ in the Word to us when our heart is turned to the Lord. We see the Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ and we are transformed into His Image, even as by the Lord Spirit.

The veil is over the heart when reading the Word, and the veil is taken away in Christ and we behold Him there. That is in the Word. And the Spirit within us transforms us.

Graftedbranch






 2005/12/10 12:44Profile









 Re: Quakers, old and new, and the 'inner light'

Quote:
Did George Fox distinguish between the 'light of God' and the 'seed of God'?



George Fox felt that the INNER LIGHT far exceeded obedience to the Word of God.

I know that is not the LIGHT David spoke of in the Psalms,

Thy [b][color=CC0000]WORD [/color][/b]is a [b][color=CC0000]LIGHT[/color][/b]unto my feet, and a [b][color=CC0000]LAMP[/color][/b] unto my path.

George Fox dis-reguarded the Word as secondary to the INNER LIGHT he had...hummmmmmmm!

Also the WORD of God is LIVING and Powerful and sharper than a two edge sword. And no where when we put on the whole armour of God is the "Inner Light even mentioned". Actually the INNER LIGHT concept is not even in scripture at all.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did





 2007/9/25 0:03









 Re: Quakers, old and new, and the 'inner light'


Hi Katy, (Please note my EDIT at the end.)

I've read your post to me on p10 of the General Topics thread 'Is speaking in tongues...' and it was helpful to my understanding better what is driving your thinking. I think personal experience drives us all (if we allow it) to seek a truer understanding of God Himself. We have common ground in that and I will answer the tongues thread much later today.

Now that I've finished writing this post, I see it is long, but I do believe it is worthwhile to communicate in more depth. What I've shared is intended to clue you into the way I figure things out. Maybe you do it the same way, but if not, then from now on you'll know I'm a lateral thinker by training, not by nature.

I noticed you had posted here, so here I am... trying to tune into what you are getting at in your statements against 'inner light'. The main reason I'm working on this, is that you seem to dispose of the whole terminology, despite its usefulness within Christianity, [u]if kept in line with scripture[/u].

Perhaps it is more helpful to you if I define my terms, rather than expecting you to guess. It was helpful in the other thread that you have now made a statement which helps me to understand how you define your terms (there).

OK: so what I am [i]always[/i] looking for in scripture, are principles which explain to me how a thing works. (Sorry for the vague language but it's simple and convenient. I like to try to condense truth out of the narrative, to understand God's mind, because this is how He has created man and the whole universe to work. Once I have a lead, I keep modifying it (usually this means making it simpler and simpler) until the template is applicable more universally.

One of these, which is the most obvious in scripture, but probably the hardest to [i]see[/i] in 3D life, is the enemy's continual copying of things God did first. Satan, as a created being, cannot have any original thought beyond the capacity God gave him, [i]and[/i] he was the first fallen creature, so it was a [u]big[/u] fall which he has ministered to humanity. (Sorry... I'm drifting into lecture mode again.)

So here, I'd like you to consider that there are two sets of parallels in operation in scripture. One is God and anti-God and the other is His revelation of Himself before Christ, and now Christ in us through the Holy Spirit. But, before Christ came the Law, which was an outward expression of the life the Holy Spirit comes to enable the believer from within. (I suppose that's a third parallel, actually.) I think we need to bear all three in mind, then, when setting ourselves to oppose another Christian's understanding, because we all have backgrounds; some are Christian, some are not, some are sequestered in an Old Covenant mindset, and some have captured New Covenant truth in more or less of its fulness, and some, as you also have observed, have abandoned the anchor of the written word of God - laying themselves open as a prey to unholy spirits; which can be even more difficult to disentangle, compared with simple pagan Godlessness.

Since coming to SI, I've become much more aware of that mix of understanding, misunderstanding and personal experience of not knowing God and coming to know Him better. I brought my own brand of confusion with me, also, and am eternally grateful, literally, to those who have prayed for me, whom God heard and answered.

So, in the tongues thread, we are sure there is a phenomenon of tongues as an outworking of the dynamic presence of the Holy Spirit and that also there is a counterfeit 'tongues' which cannot be testified to by the Holy Spirit in the hearer of them, nor (you pointed out,) does the [i]life[/i] of the tongue-speaker, show forth God. While through Christ, the New Covenant brings us an [i]internal[/i] demonstration of God's heart, which we must outwork, idolatry is still with us, [u]the[/u] alternative worship system of all time.

Your quote from David saying

Psalm 119:105
Thy word is a lamp to my feet
And a light unto my path

is, then, an external picture of something which [i]becomes[/i] an internal truth when one moves from the Law (the Old Covenant) to the New Covenant.

So, as the Word (Christ), now can be [i]in[/i] us, [u]this is not the same as the 'inner light' idea[/u] you are correctly resisting. But, objectively, that He [u]is[/u] Light to the believer is biblical and true, and any lingering concept of "inner light" coming [u]from the man himself[/u] [i]rather than Christ[/i], is at least obsolete historically for Christian believers, which I tried to show in the verses I posted in the other thread.


Another verse (first below) also tells a slightly different truth (that God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul - Gen 2:7)), which also finds resonance in the (following) New Testament verses:

Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of a man [i]is[/i] the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the inner depths of his heart.

Romans 8
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. [u]For we do not know[/u] what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 Now He who searches the hearts [Jesus?] knows what the mind of the Spirit [i]is,[/i] because He makes intercession for the saints (Heb 7:25) according to [i]the will of[/i] God.


A further point I would like you to consider, therefore, is that there are also always [i]two[/i] sides of the saint's experience - [u]in Christ[/u], and [u]Christ in me[/u]. This is scriptural, and for the sake of all those who are searching the internet for fuller truth about God, I present them both as necessary.

How you and I describe this truth has to be most carefully worded, so as to show both what you are saying (that there is an 'inner light' concept which [u]is counterfeit[/u], which I agree) and yet there is also a [i][b]true[/i][/b] Light which comes into a man [u]through believing into Christ as Saviour and LORD[/u].

Or, how would express the truth of Christ within us?


I ask, because you said:

Quote:
And no where when we put on the whole armour of God is the "Inner Light even mentioned".

Which, as I read it, makes no sense, unless you mean that armour is something we put on inside - which it may well be. This is where we hide the word in our hearts (our sword), by our hearts we believe (our shield), experience the peace of God by which our feet are to be shod, and His love which truly is our breastplate; in our minds we are renewed (the helmet of our salvation) and the whole is held in place by truth (our belt).

This verse comes to mind, then: (KJV)

Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

According to Tyndale, the armour of light means:
[i]Faith, hope, love, the fear of God, truth and all that the light of God's word teaches.[/i]


I have no doubt you can say 'amen' to such a statement, as do I.


EDIT: With reference to tongues, then, if they are of the Holy Spirit, they are true. If they are fleshly, they are counterfeit, noting nevertheless that [i]none[/i] of the [true] gifts can operate unless we make the powers of our natural body available to the Holy Spirt to use them. (Many of these are speaking gifts, but some are dependent on not only the agreement of our mouths.) I think you are completely right to have mentioned Christian character (in the other thread) as a sign of a deeper work of God in the life, than simply words\tongues can convey. Still, the Holy Spirit in us witnesses to truth, even in word only. end EDIT.

Psalms 42:7
Deep calls unto deep at the noise of Your waterfalls;
All Your waves and billows have gone over me.

Revelation 1:15
His feet [i]were[/i]] like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;


Amen.

 2007/9/26 6:37





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy