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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Who are the sons, what is the devil doing there?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Jeff,

Quote:
Where in Scripture does it say that those angels who chose to disobey God were still called "sons of God?"



I was basing the premise on the passages in Job and Genesis 6. If the "sons of God" came to present themselves and Satan with them, it would reason that all of the non-bound "sons of God" would be in that procession.

I recall once John MaCarthur listing the angels:

1) Elect
2) Fallen

Of the [u]fallen[/u] there are:

1) Loosed
2) Bound

Of the [u]bound[/u] there are:

1) Temporarily Bound
2) Permanently Bound


It would seem that all of the 'loosed' angels are accountable before God as we see the "sons of God" [u]and[/u] Satan appearing before Him. I would think this means every one that still has their freedom. Another option I could imagine is that they were there but their specific name were not given (if it were other than "sons of God" or angels. But thats a long shot.

I cannot imagine that the so called 'Godly line of Seth' would be called "sons of God" because man had fallen and Ron pointed out other problems with it (God does not have grandchildren, etc.).

My last option being that the "sons of God" may have fallen into disobedience Genesis 6, but that still does not answer the passages in Job.

God BLess,

-Robert



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/26 12:11Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Where in Scripture does it say that those angels who chose to disobey God were still called "sons of God?"

Isn' this where we started? Job 1:6 (KJVS) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 (KJVS) Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/26 12:39Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Job 1:6 (KJVS) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

I cannot assert as you that the sons of God are the fallen according to the Scriptures sited here.

Does not Scripture also teach that God sends angels to protect those that are His? Would not Jobs angels be present to confront Satan?

What of the story in Daniel where the angels war against the powers and principalities in the spiritual realm.


Again in Zech 3, we see Satan and others. The companions of which is cited in this section of Scripture do not assert that which you cite in Genesis or Job. I must therefore contend with the whole counsel of God.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/10/26 13:01Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

This talk of comparing the 'sons of God' to the angels is quite interesting. I must admit that I agree with you. Although, it does stir another thought that I am curious how you would address.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is Michael the Archangel. They do not believe Jesus is God. They believe Jesus is the first of all creation, the firstborn son of God, an angel who God has given all authority over earth and heaven. By this, they believe Jesus is a God or a Lord, but not the Lord or the God. They base this on several doctrinal arguments. The most obvious argument they use is that Jesus called Himself the son of God, and at no time ever called Himself God.

By what we have been discussing, as angels being the 'sons of God,' it does lend itself to a misinterpreation of Jesus stating that He is the son of God. By this, they could say that Jesus was saying, "I am an angel." Part of this is substantiated by a misinterpretation of the book of Revelation especially chapter 22 where John is talking with an angel, and the angel was quoting God word for word saying, "I, Jesus". (Revalation 22:6-19 Also, misinterpretations in Daniel 10:13, 10:21, 11:1, 12:1 and Rev. 12:7)

As you know, I don't believe this. I believe Jesus is Lord and God. I am curious though as to what you would say to someone who was putting up that argument. How would you respond?

Thanks,

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/10/26 13:17Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Jeff,

The view that the sons of God are believed angels is a view that dates far back in antiquity. I found a quote on this:

All the versions, and indeed all the critics, are puzzled with the phrase sons of God; beney haelohim, literally, sons of the God, or sons of the gods. The Vulgate has simply filii dei, sons of God. The Septuagint, the angels of God. The Chaldee, kittey malachaiya, troops of angels. (Clarke) However, Adam Clarke does not hold to the view of Genesis 6 being 'angels'.

If the LXX has 'angels' it would have to be the understanding of the scribes of that day. This is furthered by Clarkes other notation of "troops of angels" used in the Chaldee.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/26 13:30Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
As you know, I don't believe this. I believe Jesus is Lord and God. I am curious though as to what you would say to someone who was putting up that argument. How would you respond?

There are several levels upon which the JW theory could be addressed. The most obvious, I think, would be recourse to the epistle to the Hebrews where Christ is specifically said to have been the object of angelic worship not one of the worshippers:“And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.” (Heb. 1:6, KJVS) Another helpful verse in Hebrews shows Christ's identification with the human rather than the angelic race:“For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” (Heb. 2:16, KJVS)

There is another fatal problem for the JW thesis. If Michael the Angel became Christ the man, what has happened to the body of Christ the man, if (as the JWs say) Christ has now reverted to being an angel?

A very early thread here on SI discussed the 'first born of all creation' aspect. I will see if I can find it.

edit: Yes, here it is. [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=673&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]The Father's Firstborn...[/url]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/26 13:39Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Br. Robert wrote:

Quote:
However, Adam Clarke does not hold to the view of Genesis 6 being 'angels'.



My understanding of Genesis 6 is that the 'sons of God' spoken of are indeed speaking of faithful men who were like Abel, Seth, Enoch, etc.

Yet my point in this discussion does not seek to establish what the sons of God are but rather what makes them 'sons of God." Scripture teaches that there is always faithful men throughout the generations of this world. Scripture also teaches that there are always faithful angels as well.

I believe that both men and angels are 'sons of God," that is, those who obey.

Paul teaches in Romans 8:14, who the sons of God are. It is those who submit to being led by the Spirit of God.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/10/26 15:02Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Jeff,

I understand. However, I don't believe that we can confuse the two. It is hard for me to imagine why scripture at this juncture would use "sons of God" when "sons of Seth" could have been just has easily used.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/26 15:35Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Rom. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Paul teaches that it is the Spirit of God that determines or identifies who are the 'sons of God." It is very important to come to terms with this precept. This precept is laced throughtout Scripture. This precept presents the choice to all His creation, obey or rebell. All will be judged according to what they did not what they thought.

Our path creates the evidence of what we hope for.

How many men in Scriptures have walk this path of life? How many men have rejected this path and are judged by the words of Jesus? How many angels have submitted to God? How many angels have rebelled against God?

How many have been led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.

It is not my intent to argue a point, it is my intent to point to what Scriptures define as those who are the sons of God.



In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/10/26 16:40Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Hey Ron,

Thanks for the feedback. It is a bit ironic, but shortly after I made that post, I entered a discussion with someone who believes the trinity is false, and supports it heavily with the bible.

I read through the post about the Father's firstborn. This is helpful.

One of the things I think is interesting in all this is how it demonstrates the problems and limitations of language. In the bible, "son(s) of God" is used in conjunction with so many concepts and topics. Each time it is used, however, the connotation changes. For instance, in one part it refers to angels. In another, it refers to humans. Sometimes, it is used to show position of authority.

Words are limiting and give way to so much interpretation and meaning which is then limited by our own understanding of the words and thier usage. I wonder, can God's Word really be embodied in human words?

I don't like the use of 'first born' when applied to Jesus as it is really misleading. It refers to being the first human to be resurrected. However, many people misinterpret it to mean that Jesus is the first thing God created.

Anyway, I don't think there is an adequate way to argue the position of the trinity. I believe it must be come unto by faith. Which makes a great deal of sense.

We were given free will which means we were given the choice to choose our own God, the thing that we will devote our will towards. God wants us to come unto Him in love, by our own choice, and choose to make Him our God. If Jesus, or the bible, would have just come out and said plainly, "Jesus is God," then it would have robbed us of our choice. We must believe it. We must believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior. This revelation was hidden so that only those who Jesus chooses may have this revealed unto them.

Thanks again,

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/10/26 18:37Profile





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