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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
In saying this, I am fully accepting of the authority of scripture, to those who have scripture in their hands, but, I am concerned at the emphasis you put on it, seeing not only was Paul not with the twelve, (although he knew the Old Testament writings very well) but, there are literally thousands of Christians who have chosen to die for Christ's Name, who have never held a Bible in their hands.

Paul's writings are expressly judged as scripture by the Apostle Peter.

Quote:
When I was three, I was given a beautiful book with Bible stories and gorgeous pictures. It was big, and we had to sit at a table to look at it. I remember the angels standing round the garden of Eden and the fiery sword turning in all directions to guard the way to the tree of life. Did this mean anything to me? Well, God thought it meant enough, for, the day after an extremely traumatic experience, He sent an angel to show His interest in me. There are two ways I knew what I was seeing was an angel. Firstly, he looked like one of the angels in the picture. Secondly, I was terrified - just like the shepherds in the field.

I am struggling to see where this hallucination fits into our discussion. I am not disputing the fact that God can communicate with us in all manner or ways. I am not saying that a person becomes a Christian because they believe the Bible. I am saying that if they put their faith in a Jesus who is not the Jesus of the biblical revelation they are being misled. I do not believe that Bible words are magic; it is the entrance of God's word that gives light. What I am saying is that we are required, as we are able, to test our experience against the scripture and if it fails the test we re-evaluate our experience not the veracity of the scripture. The scripture thus becomes the final court of appeal.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/21 13:43Profile









 Re:

Quote from Ron "The point I am making here does not relate to the law at all, but simply that Christ believed in the inerrancy of the Scripture. Even Bubbaguy admits that, but he believes Christ was fallible in his earthly experience believing the fantasies of his day eg Jonah and the great fish."

This is not what I have said. My point is that Christ spoke to the condition of people in the times of His earthly existence. He refers to Adam because no one could have understood anything else. This is cultural. He refers to Noah and the flood because it is a point of reference that the people of that culture and history would understand. He makes these points in context. This is not saying He is fallible at all.

Bub

 2005/10/21 14:27









 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?


Dear Ron,

Quote:
Paul's writings are expressly judged as scripture by the Apostle Peter.



I am not in dispute over the fact that Peter recognised Paul's writings as scripture. This should be completely clear from the first part of my sentence.

My mention of those who do not have a Bible, was really the point. You seem to be suggesting their experience of God must be significantly suspect, because they have responded to a gospel received [i][b]aurally[/b][/i] - apart from the changes they see in those who have preached to them and the operation of the Holy Spirit in their own lives.
Quote:
I am not disputing the fact that God can communicate with us in all manner or ways.

I would like to think that if you had a daughter who saw an angel, you would not immediately dismiss it as a 'hallucination' but, I accept you don't have to believe me.

In fact, its effect at the time, was exactly what God had hoped to achieve in those who [i]did[/i] believe me and for this I [b][i]praise[/i][/b] Him.

Also, I'm sorry you're struggling to see the significance of my sharing this very precious event from my childhood, which is only one of several times when God intervened in my life and understanding while I was still a child. Is not such experience completely in line with the injunction to become as a [i][b]little[/b][/i] child, that I might be received by my Father in heaven?

Quote:
we are required, as we are able, to test our experience against the scripture

I'm really not sure about this. It cannot possibly be a requirement for salvation - which is not to suggest (for a second) that those who have a Bible should not use it in the way you describe - but, there has to be some limit to what one goes back to scripture to check up on. I have to assume that you mean only certain [u]very specific[/u] types of 'revelation', and not the ordinary conversation between a believer and his(or her) Lord, as each day wears on. Yes?

 2005/10/21 15:21
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

Quote:
“If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;” (John 10:35, KJVS)
The point I am making here does not relate to the law at all, but simply that Christ believed in the inerrancy of the Scripture.



Consider the context:

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make F22 us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Let's establish the scenario first. Christ was talking to some Jews who were questioning his claim to being God's son. He was in a debate much like we have been debating. In order to establish an defense, Christ used the law to establish His point. "Is it not written in your law..." He then quoted scripture. In order to establish His point, He had to then establish that the law was final. And so, in doing so, He said, "and scripture cannot be broken."

Christ was not giving a command to His disciples. He was not stating His position on a particular subject. He did not preface this scripture with, "I say..." Christ was speaking to the Jews in order to justify Himself in a debate.

The law is binding and cannot be broken. This is true. We are all judged according to the law unless we have been saved by Christ. At the time Christ lived, the law was written in the scriptures. The scriptures were considered sacred and Holy. The law is final.

However, as you established once before, when we have been born again, we die to the law.

What does it mean to die to the law? Whatever your answer may be, it is the same of the bible.

Quote:
Peter says that Paul's writings were scripture...
“as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.” (2Pet. 3:16, NKJV)



As a side note, I think it's interesting that you have quoted the KJVS up to this point, but for this scripture you quote NKJV. In the KJVS, it says "they do also the other scriptures."

Peter does allude to Paul's letters as scripture. And I am not denying that the bible is indeed scripture. I agree with you.

I do agree with you on many things. I agree the bible is good for teaching and instructing. It bears witness to the truth. The bible is an excellent way to check ourselves and learn more. It can be a way for the Lord to speak to us. I believe the Lord has given this as a gift to help us and guide us. I believe the writers of the bible were filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe the bible is inspired of God. The bible is an awesome book, and always my first pick.

In our country, we are blessed to have the bible. We are blessed to have the bible written in our language. We are blessed to have it in abundance. What of other countries where resources are limited? What would you say for those people? Is it possible to be with Christ, to know Christ, to preach Christ, and not ever read a bible?

The bible has not always been abundant. And not everyone has been able to read. This is a gift we should be greatly thankful for. For many years during the Dark Ages, the majority of people only knew Christ based upon the teachings of the Church.

I do believe that Christ has used other vessels than the bible to speak to His people throughout History. And He does even yet.

I do believe that Christ uses all His people in some way or another. We all play an important part in delivering the good news.

Quote:
Paul claims that all scripture is god-breathed. Would he say the same of your website?



This confuses me. What website are you referring? I think you must have me mixed up with someone else.

I don't think Paul was referring to his own letters when he said the above. Paul never called his own letters scripture. Even still, I think He would say his letters were inspired by God. Paul did say repeatedly that He was commissioned to deliver the good news to the gentiles.

I cannot speak for Paul. I am not Paul. However, there have been times that the Lord has used me to speak to other people. Yes, there has been times the Holy Spirit has filled me and used me to deliver His message. Most of the time, I am unaware the Lord is even using me. How should I know? The message is not for me. However, the times I do know for sure are the times people were saved.

Anyhow, I think I should stop debating. I will let this set in Christ's hands and pray over it. If you have more to say, I will read it and look it over. I checked out that link you sent me. The writer stretches His arguments thin on many things. It would be a long post to debate everything.

The important thing is that we give ourselves unto Christ as our Lord in love. I believe in all my heart that you have. And by this, we are in agreement. For the same Christ that is in you is in me. I trust in Christ, therefore I trust in you.

Thank you for sharing all that you have.
In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/10/21 15:46Profile
habakkuk3
Member



Joined: 2005/10/18
Posts: 490
Virginia

 Re: Going back to the title of the thread

I have read much of this thread with interest and would make a very simple statement.

Sin is always voluntary, so if I sin it's a decision I chose to make. The devil didn't make me do it.


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2005/10/21 17:09Profile









 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?


In case I've given any impression that I don't read scripture, or, that I don't think it's important to know and understand scripture, I thought I should re-state my affirmation of the value and necessity of knowing the Bible - both Old and New Testaments - and being as familiar as possible with its message.

God has spoken many 'words' to me, straight off the page, as well as interpreting to my understanding, deeper insight as to His nature. I say 'deeper' because, some things did not reach my 'understanding' until I had been reading for a long time and actually [i]searching out[/i] truth.

 2005/10/21 17:18
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
This is not what I have said. My point is that Christ spoke to the condition of people in the times of His earthly existence. He refers to Adam because no one could have understood anything else. This is cultural. He refers to Noah and the flood because it is a point of reference that the people of that culture and history would understand. He makes these points in context. This is not saying He is fallible at all.

so was there an Adam, was there a Jonah? Christ tied the miracle of his resurrection into the literal equivalence of Jonah's experience. “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (Matt. 12:40, KJVS)You will notice the equivalence 'as Jonah' so... the Son of man. If Christ's use of the the Jonah story is the use of a cultural image what are we to make of his resurrection?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/21 18:38Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

[Quote]

Quote:

Paul claims that all scripture is god-breathed. Would he say the same of your website?


This confuses me. What website are you referring? I think you must have me mixed up with someone else.
My apologies, I got my wires crossed.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/21 18:43Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
Peter says that Paul's writings were scripture...
“as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.” (2Pet. 3:16, NKJV)

As a side note, I think it's interesting that you have quoted the KJVS up to this point, but for this scripture you quote NKJV. In the KJVS, it says "they do also the other scriptures."

I did so intentionally because I thought the NKJV makes the point a little more clearly. The word used 'loipoi' means 'the remaining ones'. Peter referred to the OT etc as 'the remaining ones'. That is to say the 'scriptures' are made up of Paul's writings and the 'rest'.

Why did you find it 'interesting'?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/21 18:47Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

There is no need to take in the whole of the chapter in this instance. I am simply showing that 'the word of God' and 'scripture' are synonimous terms in this verse.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/21 18:51Profile





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