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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The basis of our faith is on Jesus. We are Christians, are we not? We mimic Christ. We follow Christ. He lives inside of us, does He not?


which Christ?“For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” (2Cor. 11:4, KJVS)Paul carefully distinguishes between these two positions in these follwing verses.“But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2Tim. 3:14-17, KJVS)Paul is not propounding, here, faith in the scripture as the means of salvation, but faith in a Saviour who is revealed in the scripture. Otherwise which Jesus is a person putting their faith in?

The Quakers addressed these issues often because of their insistence in the presence of 'light in every man'. In 1883,which was 200 years after George Fox, they wrote about their 'belief in the divine authority of the Holy Scriptures, and upheld the sacred volume as the only divinely authorized record of the doctrines of true religion'. They re-affirmed their condifedence in the scriptures and added:In conformity with these principles it has ever been, and still is, the belief of the Society of Friends, that the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament were given by inspiration of God; that there can be no appeal from them to any other authority whatsoever: that they are able to make us wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus; being the appointed means of making known to us the blessed truths of Christianity: that they are the only divinely authorized record of the doctrines which we are bound as Christians to believe, and of the moral principles which are to regulate our actions: that no doctrine which is not contained in them can be required of any one to be believed as an article of faith: that [u]whatsoever any man says or does which is contrary to the Scriptures, though under profession of the immediate guidance of the Spirit, must be reckoned and accounted a delusion.[/u]The Quakers had decades of finding the balance between the 'inner light' and the final authority of the scripture. Some of their best men went of into 'delusions'. In this era of claims of experiences which are extra-biblical and of the doctrines which spring from them, we have much to learn from the Quakers.

Quote:
astly, the bible, scripture, was written by men and women filled with the Holy Spirit. God had revealed unto them truth. Likewise, has not God revealed unto you truth? Is not the Holy Spirit called the Spirit of Truth? And so, is your faith based upon the revelation of the bible (of other men and women)? Or is it based upon personal testimony of Christ in you?

I thank God for revelations of truth to my own heart. My work is based on what I call 'hunches' which I then test ruthlessly against the scriptures. If I cannot 'test and approve' it by the scriptures I will not pass it on. The Spirit is indeed the Spirit of Truth and the way we may know that we are receiving revelation from that Spirit is that He will never say anything which is inconsistent with what He has already said. My faith is in the person of that Jesus Christ who is set forth in the scripture. My experience is of 'Christ in you' and the inner witness of the Spirit and the outer witness of the apostles' writings are in absolute agreement in every particular in this. This is exactly what was promised.“But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, [u]he shall bear witness of me: and ye also bear witness[/u], because ye have been with me from the beginning.” (John 15:26-27, ASV) I thank God for the twofold witness of the Spirit in my heart and of the scripture to my understanding.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/18 16:33Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
There is a big difference between thinking something and having the LIGHT of God instruct you. When the Light of God shines, it touches your soul and you know it in every fiber of your being. It's a lot different than reasoning and thought.


you are still making your own recognition of truth the final arbiter. Your Quaker predecessors made the scripture the final arbiter.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/18 16:35Profile









 Re:

Ron,

The Scriptures do indeed witness to me of the saving grace of Christ Jesus, as do others of the faith in their deeds and testimony. They are thus an invaluable part of my faith.

Yet, do you expect me to believe in Creationism or a literally true Genesis, or a worldwide flood and Noah having two or seven kinds of EVERY animal on the earth on board the Ark, when the works of God (i.e. the fossil record) that can be clearly demonstrated as true say something entirely different? (There is no worldwide flood in the fossil record. There is no way two penguines and two Australian saltwater crocodiles were on the ark and no way to have enough food for all those animals.)

But because the Genesis creation story is poetic and not literally factual does not undermine my understanding or faith in the testimonies of Christ in the New Testament. I look at the big picture of the Scriptures: the Savior was prophecised to the Jews; He came and they didn't acknowledge him and he was crucified for our sins; He arose and is with us here and now in the form of the Holy Spirit; He will judge us at some time in the future and the saved will be with Him for eternity. That's what I get from reading and listening and waiting upon the Lord and no talk of a literal, inerrant bible will persuade me otherwise. :-) Bub

 2005/10/18 17:13
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I look at the big picture of the Scriptures

Why would you believe the big picture when you reject so many of the details? You reject Paul's testimony and the Revelation. You eliminate the passages which speak of eternal judgement. Your big picture is so 'edited' by what you chose to believe that it is now a seriously flawed picture. You insist upon the right to subject the scriptures to your own conceptions. I cannot force you to do otherwise and wouldn't even if I could, but I do not recognise your position as either Quaker or Christian.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/18 18:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:
and no way to have enough food for all those animals.)



Oh my goodness! Isnt that what the disciples said about feeding the 5,000?????? :-o

 2005/10/19 5:25









 Re:

"You insist upon the right to subject the scriptures to your own conceptions."

Evolution is not my conception. It is a theory because of the tremendous amount of physical evidence that supports it.

Bub

 2005/10/19 9:38
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Evolution is not my conception. It is a theory because of the tremendous amount of physical evidence that supports it.


...and Adam's original sin being his abandoning of vegetarianism and Eve's new shape which came from chasing animals, as I recall. Then there is reincarnation... You maintain the right to pass judgement on the Word of God; whereas part of its purpose is to pass judgement upon us.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/19 9:59Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

I understand where you are coming from. I do agree that God does not conflict and would never say anything in confusing or conflicting over time. I understand your reasoning that the bible is the basis by which we can use to discern the truth.

Please try to understand where I am coming from. I am not trying to say the bible is false or useless, or justify extra-biblical prophecy.

I believe that Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Father are all the same person. Just as I am a brother, husband, father, and such at different occasions in life, so God takes on different roles.

In my Christian walk, this is most essential for what this means is that Jesus is the foundation, the basis, the heart, and the center of all things. He is God.

Jesus is God's Word as John reveals in the book of John chapter 1. This is also essential for what it means is that Jesus is the truth. Jesus is the Holy Spirit. He is God.

When I was saved, Christ came down from Heaven and entered me. Christ lives inside me. Because of this experience, I have a testimony of Christ. When I was saved, I went forth and testified to Christ.

The bible, scripture, was written by men who also testified to Christ. The bible then, is not the Word, for even the bible declares that Christ is the Word, rather, the bible is a testimony to Christ. The bible testifies to the Spirit. Thus, the bible is not the Word, the bible testifies to the Word.

This is an important distinction, don't you think?

This means that these men wrote the bible based upon thier own personal experiences with Christ. Therefore, the initial writing of the bible was based upon subjective experiences.

Granted, the experience of many of them was with Christ as a human being, where our experience is with Christ as a Spirit. Evenso, Paul's experience was with Christ as a Spirit for He did not know Christ when Christ walked on earth.

This is not to cheapen the bible or say it is less. Rather, it is to say that the testimony of each person is as equally valid as the testimony as of the Bible. Christ gives to each accordingly.

When I was growing up, I read the bible frequently. Granted, I never understood this testimony, I still listened. Many years later, this testimony was backed by the testimony of other Christians, and I became saved. Christ saved me. The testimony of His love from the bible and other Christians helped me to make the choice to call upon Christ for salvation.

The testimony of the bible is valid. It is good for teaching and instructing. However, my personal testimony is valid too. And as you pointed out, these two should always agree.

The thing that must be understood about the bible is that not only does it say something, it has meaning. We must understand that there is a difference between what something says and what it means.

Here is a good example. I could call your house and say, "Is Ron there?" Literally, I am asking, "Is Ron at the house?" However, what I mean by this statement is this, "I want to know if Ron is available to talk. If he is, ask him to come and talk to me."

The bible says many things, and in these sayings we may find conflict. However, there is no conflict in the meaning. God did not say the bible. The bible is not the words of God. Rather, God inspired the bible. The meaning of the bible is from God. The testimony of the bible, the message it carries, is from God. And in the message there is no conflict.

You are saying that we can verify or test all things in accord with the bible. That is true to a degree. However, we must becareful that our own understanding of the scripture is not distorted. The bible is only as good as it's interpretation.

Before I was saved, I could read the bible and understand what it says. However, what I could not understand was the meaning. It was not until after I was filled with the Holy Spirit that the message of the bible really began to speak to me.

Many people read the bible without the Spirit, and by this, the bible has been used to promote many lies and false Christs.

In order to interpret the bible correctly, we must first turn to the Holy Spirit. We must first open our hearts to the Christ in us. Once we have submitted unto Christ, He then can speak to us. Then we can turn to the bible and read it correctly.

This means that we first turn to Christ, and the bible is secondary. Once we have been filled with the Spirit of Truth and have submitted unto Christ, then we can read the bible and interpret the truth within it. By this, it is the Holy Spirit that reveals us the truth within the bible. Another way of saying this: the bible only becomes the living Word when the person reading it has first submitted unto the Holy Spirit and is filled with the Holy Spirit, for only then can the Holy Spirit speak through the bible.

And so, when we test things in accord with the bible, we are actually testing them in accord to the Spirit, for we first turn to the Spirit and ask the Spirit to grant us understanding.

However, if we use the bible alone as the authority, we run into problems. For, I could use the bible to justify anything I wish. I have seen people use the bible to justify homosexuality or to show that Hell is a lie.

Personally, I love the bible. It is an awesome book full of wisdom. I love to read the bible and read it for fun. I love to read different translations.

Admist the lies, the many interpretations, the lost books of the bible, and all else, I am comforted....

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

I know this is true, not because the bible says so, but because Christ within me affirms this. He is my shepard.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/10/19 11:07Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Blake

Quote:
I believe that Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Father are all the same person. Just as I am a brother, husband, father, and such at different occasions in life, so God takes on different roles.

Do you want to clarify this before the feeding frenzy starts? :-) As it stands this is 'modalism', the belief that God has manifested Himself in different modes but that there is not a Triune God. If you do believe this we probably need to go back a few paces.

Quote:
I know this is true, not because the bible says so, but because Christ within me affirms this. He is my shepard.

This sentence would have to be changed before I could agree with it. If it were to say 'not ONLY because the Bible says so...' it would get my 'amen', but as it stands it leaves your personal conviction as the ultimate authority. I cannot share that view.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/19 11:48Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:
"You insist upon the right to subject the scriptures to your own conceptions."

Evolution is not my conception. It is a theory because of the tremendous amount of physical evidence that supports it.

Bub



drdino.com - Dr. Ken Hovind

AnswersInGenesis.com - Dr Ken Ham

They blow any thought that evolution could possible be true out of the water. Not only Biblically but scientifically. There is no proof for evolution. It is the religion of humanism's story of creation. You have to have completely blind faith to believe in it. There is no proof.


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Josh Parsley

 2005/10/19 12:01Profile





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