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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So on what basis do you judge that another person's claim to 'have the witness in himself', is as valid as yours to have the witness in yourself?


Why would I judge another person's claim to 'have the witness in himself'?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/18 3:54Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

sorry, it only posted part of my response, so I deleted this and reposted.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/18 4:13Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
i had a revelation from the Lord some time ago about scripture. it is brethed of God's Spirit and requires God's Spirit to interpret it and minister to us. in addition there is much more to scripture than what is on the surface, there are things between the written lines (for lack of a better expression) or deeper things in scripture which at first glance may appear to be non-biblical. Perhaps we should always be aware that there are things in scripture that the Lord hasn't revealed to us yet? this is not to say that everything "non-biblical" is of God but rather that what the Lord has revealed to bro X may not be known to bro Y, in short none of us know it all as it pertains to scripture.

I agree with the sentiments of the first half of this. It is almost a repeat of the famous charge to the Mayflower Pilgrims I charge you before God and His blessed angels to follow me no farther than I have followed Christ. If God should reveal anything to you by any other instrument of His, be as ready to receive it as ever you were to receive any truth of my ministry; for I am very confident the Lord hath more truth and light yet to break forth out of His holy word."-- but this is NOT 'extra' biblical revelation. In this sense 'extra' means 'in addition to' and does not relate to interpretation of the scripture, but to 'new' revelation' which is not contained in the scripture.

As regards 'biblical revelation' in truth being 'reinterpreted' and 'made alive' by the same Spirit of inspiration... my whole life's work has been based on this expectation. There are different aspects of Bible study which are equally important. Exegesis is the examination of the 'text' within its 'original context'. Exposition is the application of the exegeted truths to my life and the lives of my hearers. An old preacher used to say that the scripture were the 'dehydrated word of God' which would choke us to death unless they were 're-hydrated' by the same spirit who inspired them. There is much truth in this statement.

but 'extra-biblical' revelation is 'truth' added to the scripture as part of a doctrinal revelation. Any such 'truths' must be vigilently examined in the light of the scripture. Is. 8:20 (KJVS) To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. This is why, Ironman, I opposed your 'revelation' that you had been given a 'tongue' which enabled you to command angels.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/18 4:18Profile
jimbob
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Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

The issue as I see it is that someone comes along with an experience, a dream, or a vision and voila, a new cult is born!

We have every obligation to judge every claim made by anyone according to the revelation of scripture!

Ron, you are right on target, and led by the Spirit of Truth in pointing out the spirit of error that is being demonstrated in this thread.

Hans, sorry but Jesus did give us permission to ask HIM in prayer,"Whatever you ask in my name, that will I DO, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask ME anything in MY name, I WILL DO IT."John 14:13&14.

Hans, did God the Father tell you specifically to start a website to relate your dreams and revelations to the rest of Christendom? Or did you assume since you had a dream that you were ordained by God to proclaim some new "truth" about the proper form of prayer to the Father?

Its nice that you had dreams and revelations and deliverances, so have I! I have subjected mine to the Spirit of truth as revealed in the Scripture and I have also subjected them to the Mind of the Lord through prayer, and guess what, they were all of my own flesh!

You had an experience, so did Ellen White and Joseph Smith. Reconsider the path you are on.

 2005/10/18 6:49Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I am reading an old Quaker book called 'Christian Discipline of the society of friends' printed in 1883. It is a fascinating book and shows the Quakers of that time to have been solidly evangelical and evangelistic. There is a section relating to the resurrection body of Christ which says ...how and what manner of change it met withal after it was raised from the dead, so as to become such a glorious body as it is declared to be, is too wonderful for mortals to conceive. The Scripture is silent as to the manner thereof, and [u]we are not curious to inquire about or to dispute it; nor do we esteem it necessary to make ourselves wise above what is written[/u], as to the manner or condition of Christ's glorious body in heaven...It was the section that I have underlined which caught my attention. There is a deep wisdom here, would that they had stayed on this path! For myself I would walk this path; I have no wish to be 'wise above what is written'. In this sense. like many a man before me, I am more than content to be 'a man of one book'.

I fear that the church may be passing through an Athenian stage! May it 'pass' quickly! “(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)” (Acts 17:21, KJVS)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/18 7:20Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
“(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)” (Acts 17:21, KJVS)



Ron, I would fully concur with, actually go further and say that by and large it has very much become this. Was brooding on this element earlier, even amongst the 'secular' world. How it is akin to one giant game of leap frog. A desire for some 'thing', it's attained, enjoyed for a moment and then quickly discarded for the next. It never ends. Television lives on it and off it. And the wonder is how the church has been caught up in this whole mindset, seeking signs and wonders...

But reading through all this here and the red flags coming up over the last couple of days. Some dangerous comments, especially in regards to what the witness is in our spirit, the very scary thought's that there is such a thing as a truth revealed to one that is valid... don't want to misconstrue the words... This came to mind;

1Co 14:36 [b]What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?[/b]
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Actually, think I still have another verse in mind that goes along the same path just evades me right now. But isn't the essence that we test all things amongst ourselves against the scriptures? That there might be an upfront willingness to approach what we present with a ready mind to discard it, rather than protect it? That [i]motive[/i]?

That likely sounds incorrect... What Ron is stating is of great importance. Maybe it's just me, but ever have the thought's running through you that "I am not so sure I have this straight"?
Why it seems is the opposite more the compulsion; "Prove me wrong" rather than "Am I wrong"? And that without the air of superiority.

Test all things. Are we willing to learn or only to pronounce? Can a prophecy be for only one and the rest just have to catch up with it?

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Within this and believe a very good point was made elsewhere, that which applied to the apostles and in essence to them 'only' as to finishing the words that were to be recorded...

I think another misconception is apparent as well. That this holding to scripture is somehow to negate everything else or that this is some kind of superiority trip. it is not. I know the passion that Ron brings and rubs many the wrong way, because of the insisting of testing ideas and thoughts, even the witness of our spirit to scripture. It must be so. It is to everyones good.
What more is needed to be said that has not already been said? Am perfectly happy to be stuck within a closed cannon. Stranger still, there is enough contained for all eternity to explore within what we have already...

[i]If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual,[/i]

How many things cross through these fallen minds of ours that at one time we [b]think[/b] are from an inward witness, from the Lord that upon further investigation (against scripture) or the passing of time prove to be in error? More and more am finding many things that I can get caught up in, in my head that must be discarded. Isn't it a happy thing to be corrected? By those who are of your own kind, by the Lord Himself?

A perfect example that has come to notice is in prayer. Keep catching myself "praying to my head". In other words what may start out as something of a burden to lay before the Lord can turn into a sermon I am preaching in my head,or something I feel compelled to write, a self discussion and before I know it, I am no longer praying to anybody but myself. To catch it in mid stream... "Oh Father, forgive me" and then a turn back to getting on track again.

Bit rushed here, hope this makes some sense, glean what is true and discard the rest. Better, correct it. Please.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/10/18 10:54Profile









 Re:

quote:

"How many things cross through these fallen minds of ours that at one time we think are from an inward witness, from the Lord that upon further investigation (against scripture) or the passing of time prove to be in error?"

There is a big difference between thinking something and having the LIGHT of God instruct you. When the Light of God shines, it touches your soul and you know it in every fiber of your being. It's a lot different than reasoning and thought.

You also need to look at the flip side of your question. "Do you cling to literalist interpretations of the Bible when nature, God's work, tells us something completely different?" (I'm thinking the book of Genesis here.)

Bub

 2005/10/18 11:46
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear JimBon and Philologos,

The Jehovah's Witnesses objectify the bible. Because of this, they dismiss one crucial revelation that is personally reveal to every converted believer. This revelation is the Trinity. They deny the diety of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.

No where in the bible does it say that Jesus Christ is God. It refers to Him as Lord and King. However, according the the Witnesses, Jesus can be a Lord and King and yet still be less than God. The bible says that Jesus and God are one. However, the bible also says a husband and wife are one. And yet, husbands and wives are still seperate. Additionally, these points of where Jesus and God are said to be one are not clear. They are stated in different ways in different translations.

No where in the bible does it clearly state that Jesus Christ is God. There are illusions and references, but it is not clear.

This is important. This is the secret kept hidden from everyone until the proper time. Only those who have given themselves unto Christ and are born of the Spirit can know this revelation.

The reason for this is that we are to walk by faith. Our faith is in Jesus Christ. When we believe that Jesus Christ is God, then we are accepting Him as our Lord and savior. We are submitting unto His authority. We do it as an act of love. We make a choice.

If everyone knew that Jesus was God, then we could not choose Him out of love. We would choose Him selfishly because He is God. We would seek salvation not to be saved, but rather to profit our own selfish ways.

You know of the people I am speaking. These are the people that believe in God but deny Christ. They are like the Pharisees and are self-righteous.

Rather, this fact (that Jesus is God) has been hidden so that we take a leap of faith. We step out in faith to believe in Christ. Then, when we do, He reveals to us the truth: Jesus is God. He is supreme. He is Lord over all. He is almighty. He is the host of hosts.

The Jehovah's Witnesses base thier entire faith on the bible. They follow it like a book of law written to command and control thier lives. Look at how far they have fallen from the truth because of this.

If the bible were truly the object or basis for faith, then why would we need faith? God would have given us the final word in the bible. Who would need faith? It is finalized with the bible. Do you see how this is wrong?

The basis of our faith is on Jesus. We are Christians, are we not? We mimic Christ. We follow Christ. He lives inside of us, does He not?

Once we submit to Christ and are revealed of His diety by the Holy Spirit (once we are born again), then the bible becomes the word of God for us personally. Only when we are born again can we become conscious of what God is really saying in the bible.

By this, scripture does not become our object of faith for even the bible is still subject to Christ, rather, the bible becomes a strengthener of our faith. It will make "wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" by adding to our experience. However, the bible is not the basis for it.

Was it not you, my dear friend Ron, who argued for Tozer believing that we needed to experience a death unto the law? This experience is not revealed to us by the bible, for if it was then we would all be saved the minute we read it. Rather, this experience is accomplished through Christ. We die with Christ.

If you objectify the bible and say there is no revelation apart from what is in the bible, then who can be saved? Salvation only comes from Christ.

Lastly, the bible, scripture, was written by men and women filled with the Holy Spirit. God had revealed unto them truth. Likewise, has not God revealed unto you truth? Is not the Holy Spirit called the Spirit of Truth? And so, is your faith based upon the revelation of the bible (of other men and women)? Or is it based upon personal testimony of Christ in you?

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/10/18 11:48Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Beenblake,

Did I imply my faith was in the Bible alone? You probably should re-read my post.

The mormons will ask you to verify the truth of the book of mormon through a subjective experience called a "burning in the bossom". You can have all the subjective experiences you want, I've had plenty myself, yet I test them all to see if they are from God.

The evangelical/charasmatic denominations are full to the brim of people running on their own steam and following their own visions, why should I not test them as I test myself?

And when I test anything, I have a standard to use, and I would rather objectify the Bible, than to subjectify it(to my own pressupositions) wouldn't you? Or do you judge scripture according to your own experiences and pressupositions first, and then find scripture to support them?

Not every little dream or thought that pops into our heads is from God, Christians, especially those that claim they are leaders, are capable of hubris too.

 2005/10/18 12:33Profile
LetUsPray
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But.....?

I had left this thread and started a new one addressing Mike,and the Church at SI. I just looked at this and found some comments I feel I have to address.
Hans

QUOTE from JIMBOB

The issue as I see it is that someone comes along with an experience, a dream, or a vision and voila, a new cult is born!

We have every obligation to judge every claim made by anyone according to the revelation of scripture!

Ron, you are right on target, and led by the Spirit of Truth in pointing out the spirit of error that is being demonstrated in this thread.

Hans, sorry but Jesus did give us permission to ask HIM in prayer,"Whatever you ask in my name, that will I DO, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask ME anything in MY name, I WILL DO IT."John 14:13&14.

Hans, did God the Father tell you specifically to start a website to relate your dreams and revelations to the rest of Christendom? Or did you assume since you had a dream that you were ordained by God to proclaim some new "truth" about the proper form of prayer to the Father?

Its nice that you had dreams and revelations and deliverances, so have I! I have subjected mine to the Spirit of truth as revealed in the Scripture and I have also subjected them to the Mind of the Lord through prayer, and guess what, they were all of my own flesh!

You had an experience, so did Ellen White and Joseph Smith. Reconsider the path you are on.

UNQUOTE

This is the question that has to be asked. WHAT PATH AM I ON?

Thank you jimbob, for this post. I appreciate your candor. I only wished that some of you would go further than to just post with some label, rather than letting us know who you are.

This, Church of SI brings us to the truth. It has to, for we have to know the truth, it is the only thing that will set us free. This is what our Lord Jesus promised us, that we would know the truth and it would set us free. It is for exactly that reason that I asked your concurrence to explain myself rather than having to debate every point. Let me explain myself and you test it; that is YOUR task. You HAVE TO; OTHERWISE INDEED ANOTHER CULT WILL BE BORN!

I will start a new thread called the Schemes of the Devil. There is no way that I can follow two or three threads on this Forum. Write for my own website, and meet the other obligations the Lord has brought on my path. If this does interest you, please follow along on this thread. It is because I test everything against Scripture that I say the things I say.

Quote:
...how and what manner of change it met withal after it was raised from the dead, so as to become such a glorious body as it is declared to be, is too wonderful for mortals to conceive. The Scripture is silent as to the manner thereof, and we are not curious to inquire about or to dispute it; nor do we esteem it necessary to make ourselves wise above what is written, as to the manner or condition of Christ's glorious body in heaven...


What an amazing wisdom in this quote. Thank you Philologos for sharing this, for this approach will indeed prove that when we “understand” Scripture, we don’t need to dispute. My observation is that we in the Church of Jesus Christ have made us WISE ABOVE WHAT IS WRITTEN


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Hans Prang

 2005/10/18 13:05Profile





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