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 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Quote:
I think that if one talks about a dysfunctional home, mine would qualify.

Hans,

Thank you for sharing all that detail. It sounds like there were sins from others against you, as well what Leanne Payne (quotes someone else as calling) 'our own grievous reactions'.

 2005/10/10 20:56
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I have a question. Is there any scriptural basis for regarding the behaviour provoked by an evil spirit as 'sin'... by which I mean, sin over which we have control (after new birth/baptism in the Spirit) and can choose not to do according to the fruit of the Spirit temperance?

As far as I can remember, the New Testament always puts the blame for the bad behaviour on the spirit and never places responsibility on the PERSON with the spirit, for having the spirit.

There is more than one way of understanding this question and I want to make sure I understand what we are talking about.

Does the NT ever hold a 'spirit' responsible for 'rage'? Does the NT ever speak of a 'spirit of rage'? A man or woman who submits to 'rage' will certainly become its slave but does that mean he must be 'delivered' before he can repent of his sin? I am always unsettled when I hear people who hold someone else responsible for their own sin. Some blame their parents, or their childhood, or spirits but there is no deliverance from sin until a man speaking to God says '[u]I[/u] have sinned against [u]thee[/u]'.

I'm not sure either whether O'Neil is referring to a spirit which is an 'entity' or a spirit which is a 'disposition'. Perhaps the original poster can tell me? I can see no Biblical evidence for the idea that a regenerate person can be indwelt by an evil entity while at the same time being indwelt by the Spirit of God. I just can't do the math! Where would the evil entity locate in someone who was 'filled' with the Holy Spirit?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/11 10:20Profile
LetUsPray
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Dear Ron,

Quote:
I'm not sure either whether O'Neil is referring to a spirit which is an 'entity' or a spirit which is a 'disposition'. Perhaps the original poster can tell me? I can see no Biblical evidence for the idea that a regenerate person can be indwelt by an evil entity while at the same time being indwelt by the Spirit of God. I just can't do the math! Where would the evil entity locate in someone who was 'filled' with the Holy Spirit?


You put it very well when you say “I just can’t do the math!” It may be a bit more involved than that, I think. It is not a matter of math; it is a matter of walking out one’s salvation by the continuing forming of Christ in you.

We have to put our denominational doctrines on God’s altar and start reading His Word again under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not based on what others have taught us. What does it mean when we are born-again? What does it mean when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit? Jesus told us that being born again meant that we were also born of the Spirit. He also said that if we believed – which means, commit ourselves unto – we would have the ability to see – understand – the Kingdom of Heaven and we would qualify to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He didn’t say that we were now fully filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus was fully filled with the Holy Spirit and He saw what was IN man. Most Christians I know, who by denominational definition are “filled” with the Spirit, certainly don’t see what is IN man. Most don’t even admit to what is within themselves, although they are quite able to point out the problems others have.

Isn’t it for this reason that Paul asks the Father: “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened;” (Eph.1:17,18), AND,…”That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God” (Eph.3:16-19).

Why did Paul write this: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you (Gal.4:19)? Why didn’t he just baptize them in the Spirit? Wouldn’t that have been a lot quicker and more secure, or is there more to it: we are not completely filled with the Spirit, even though we appear to be displaying gifts of the Spirit by speaking in tongues?

How about Colossians 1 where Paul again talks about laboring to present every man perfect in Christ? Why was Paul laboring?

Just to set the record straight, I didn’t blame my parents for what I went through. Never did I accuse them for what I did. They also attended a church where the truth of the gospel wasn’t preached. I hated my mother, but when I became a Christian, the very first thing I did was write her and my father a letter in which I asked them to forgive me for all the pain I had caused them. I also forgave them before the Lord. As I pointed out, the sexual abuse incident wasn’t revealed to me until four years after I became a Christian, therefore I wasn't able to forgive the perpetrators untill then and break the right of the tormentor to that area of my life. I know that I was a Christian in spite of my struggles. Why does Paul write:

2 Corinthians
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
4 who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
5 For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ.

With all due respect Ron, if you haven’t been there, you may not understand all the implications. I believe that this is the reason that I cross paths with hurting people all the time, because God sends them to me. Every church has people who suffer and they never find freedom, because we have established rules for God in what we are willing to accept. The God I serve is greater than any man can describe Him, or even understand Him.


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Hans Prang

 2005/10/11 12:17Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
We have to put our denominational doctrines on God’s altar and start reading His Word again under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not based on what others have taught us.

I don't have any denominational doctrines. I doubt that there is a denomination that would have me! :-)

Quote:
With all due respect Ron, if you haven’t been there, you may not understand all the implications. I believe that this is the reason that I cross paths with hurting people all the time, because God sends them to me. Every church has people who suffer and they never find freedom, because we have established rules for God in what we are willing to accept. The God I serve is greater than any man can describe Him, or even understand Him.

Why do people presume that because somewhere does not talk about things 'they have not been there'? You would be surprised where I have been and if you were to search this website you would find out.

Quote:
As I pointed out, the sexual abuse incident wasn’t revealed to me until four years after I became a Christian, therefore I wasn't able to forgive the perpetrators untill then and break the right of the tormentor to that area of my life.

This is not theology but psychology. Any psychologist who knew my need but did not provide my cure would be regarded as irresponsible. I can't help but wonder whether God should not face the same charge under this way of thinking?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/11 13:11Profile
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Quote:
I don't have any denominational doctrines. I doubt that there is a denomination that would have me!


Well brother Ron, I am with you on that one. :-)
Quote:
Why do people presume that because somewhere does not talk about things 'they have not been there'? You would be surprised where I have been and if you were to search this website you would find out.


You are totally correct; I haven’t been on long enough to really know you. I apologize and will be more careful next time.
Quote:
This is not theology but psychology. Any psychologist who knew my need but did not provide my cure would be regarded as irresponsible. I can't help but wonder whether God should not face the same charge under this way of thinking


Ron, I don’t know why you call this psychology? I only do prayer counseling and have never, nor will use psychology or psychiatry for that matter. Some people I know have been helped by psychologists, but I have never personally been involved in this way, because Jesus came to set the captives free. I have no answer why it took four years to expose this “thing,” but that is exactly what happened. It is the only reason I wrote it, because in praying and asking God for insight into a difficulty when I minister to other people, the Lord often provides that. Why didn’t He do that when they were saved? If you know, please tell me, for to date the Lord hasn’t shown me yet. I have seen people who were set free after specific demons were addressed and departed. If they were “filled” with the Holy Spirit, I have no idea, only God knows that. What I can testify to, is when the “rage” left me, I never experienced it again. I felt still the same about God, except that I was much more amazed by His patience and love for me.

The reason that I assumed that you had not been delivered from a demon after you were saved was based on the fact that you wrote,
Quote:
I can see no Biblical evidence for the idea that a regenerate person can be indwelt by an evil entity while at the same time being indwelt by the Spirit of God. I just can't do the math! Where would the evil entity locate in someone who was 'filled' with the Holy Spirit?


It was not my intention to question your experience or integrity, all I asked was that you could be open to a reality that some have experienced and others not. The “Church” is in general not open to this, and I thank my heavenly Father still today, that I was set free in the mighty Name of Jesus.


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/10/11 15:44Profile









 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Quote:
I am always unsettled when I hear people who hold someone else responsible for their own sin.

This sentence in itself could make a large and useful discussion, which perhaps we could weave along inside the rest of this thread?

Ron, your word 'unsettled' arrests my attention. I feel it is there because the theology in the rest of the sentence is perhaps, [i]too[/i] concise, and this is why the possibility of truth in the second part of the sentence, is unsettling.

I can see that only oneself is responsible for one's own sin[u]s[/u]. And I would ask whether the 'people' who make such a statement, are as clear as you, about the old man and sins?

Also, it remains to the Spirit of God to convince of sin, and no-one can take responsibility for their 'own sin' until that has happened. Then, they may make the prayer you suggest in your next sentence.

Quote:
Some blame their parents, or their childhood, or spirits but there is no deliverance from sin until a man speaking to God says 'I have sinned against thee'.

The holding 'someone else responsible' has to be a valid part of an individual's search for the truth about their own behaviour. They may have been brought up to believe certain actions are 'sin' when they are not, and vice versa. Are you open to the possibility that one person may control another, [i]so that the other person sins[/i], or do you deny this dynamic?

There is also the way God does not lay blame for some sins on some people, as if He too realises the circumstance was beyond their control - whether because of their age, or the force used to procure their complicity, or their ignorance.

Quote:
Where would the evil entity locate in someone who was 'filled' with the Holy Spirit?

In their flesh and the mind of the flesh.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

As you have said of those leaving a homosexual lifestyle, the time factor applies as much to those leaving other types of addiction, where the effect on the physical body is not immediate or, rather, it is a process.

When Jesus preached the gospel before Pentecost, He offered healing and deliverance and gave power to the disciples to do this too. If this ministry does not precede the invitation to people to commit to Christ, when will they be healed and delivered, if not afterwards - not at all?

Having sat under the cultish ministry of a man who could move demons around, I have no doubt there is a connection to the phenomenum at work in Matt 7:22, 23.

There is also this

(NASB) Luke 17:1
He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! 2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, [u]than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble[/u]

and

Matthew 18:6
" But whoever [b]causes[/b] [u]one of these little ones who believe in Me[/u] [b]to sin[/b], it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


If one accepts that the flesh is not affected by regeneration, apart from through being washed and sanctified - these being entirely spiritually bestowed - then the pockets of resistance which are sometimes called 'bondages' can easily be a spiritual stronghold too.

Joshua 10:40
So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

I believe that being born again enables one to conquer the 'land' of one's life - including being freed from whatever is lurking and controlling the mini-kingdoms with their own lifesource (spring) within it.

 2005/10/11 21:35









 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Quote:
This is not theology but psychology.

This may not be theology but, it is how we are made by God.

Not everyone who remembers abuse does so because of a revelation through the Spirit. To many, the memories just start breaking through, once a 'safe' emotional distance from the events has passed. Unless they have broken through before the person became a Christian, how can they have been brought to God at the time of conversion?

What you said about psychologists is completely unfair, as they can only go on the client's disclosure. Let me qualify that by saying I know a great deal of nonsense passed for psychology in the past and perhaps some of it is still practised by some BUT, the latest way of working with survivors is light years better now, including a move away from viewing 'faith' as a defence mechanism.

(A coping mechanism is the first stage - eg you have an exam coming up - you go and do extra study; a defence mechanism would be eg to have a cigarette instead of doing extra study.)

A psychologist is there to help the client deal with the client's truth. This is very similar to how one's relationship with God works, if one is serious about being changed. One has to be open to the suggestion there is another way of seeing the same situation, such that the burden of it is lifted.... and not surprisingly, the strategies which work the best are the ones which closely resemble God's way of dealing with us. Prayer does the same.... However, only God can deal with the sin of the individual.

It takes as long again to train to work with survivors, as it does to work in ordinary counselling. The discipline is extremely strict, and the more exactly practised, the more use. As Paul said, 'I would not have you ignorant...'

If I write more, it will be too much but, there is much more to be said. It's all pretty obvious once one understands the principles, as with any area of expertise.

Quote:
Any psychologist who knew my need but did not provide my cure would be regarded as irresponsible. I can't help but wonder whether God should not face the same charge under this way of thinking?

Is this logic, really?

It is very much the kindness of God that some people are spared memories. It is also His kindness to bring memories to the surface for His attention, where He shows Himself an able Healer of mind and body.

He always wants to heal, and if the thesis that regeneration does not affect the flesh is to hold, then body memories which are distressing to mind and spirit, cannot be dealt with spiritually - unless under God in terms of re-creation where necessary or, miracle, where necessary - as well as crisis and process. They all play a part in recovery.

The problem is often that the survivor thinks [i]God[/i] will be embarrassed by their need. Then, there is the local church, who think healing should be over [i]quickly[/i] - not for any reason of the local church's expertise - they just make that bit up because they don't know what else to do.

 2005/10/11 22:45
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
This may not be theology but, it is how we are made by God.

who says so?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/12 4:44Profile









 Re: It Is NOT Normal To Sin, But...............?

Quote:
who says so?

Ron,

There is a spiritual answer to this question. I would like time to consider how best to present it to you, then I will post.

In the meantime, the Lord has brought this verse to mind, which I will and you may wish to mull over.

(KJV) 1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is [u]common to man[/u]: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear.

Young
No temptation hath taken you--except human; and God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able, but He will make, with the temptation, also the outlet, for your being able to bear it.

 2005/10/12 8:47
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear.


Are you thinking that Christ himself would have been open to this possibility too?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/12 15:29Profile





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