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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
what are women not allowed to do in the Church that men are allowed to do in the Church? :-?


Well tackling your first question: Are women allowed to preach? and I would answer prophesy YES preach and teach NO.

[b]1 Timothy 2:12 (kjv)[/b] - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in slience.

[b]1 Corinthians 11:16 (kjv)[/b] - But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

What paul is basically saying is, this is how the church of God runs and if you don't like it TO BAD this is the way its going to be!


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/11/19 11:49Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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Quote:
I would prefer 'Authority is Male'.


I wouldn't prefer, I would stand on that as truth! because the Scriptures state it! The sad problem our days is that men aren't if you wish, stepping up to the plate spiritually. God is looking for Men of God that he can count worthy to suffer for His name. Who is going to hear the call?

an intresting document to read:
[url=http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualnls/FirBlast.htm]The First Blast of the Trumpet
Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women (1558) by John Knox[/url]

here are a few excerpts:

O that both man and woman should consider the profound counsel and admonition of this father! He would not that man for appetite of any vain glory should desire preeminence above woman. For God has not made man to be head for any such cause, but having respect to that weakness and imperfection which always lets [hinders] woman to govern. He has ordained man to be superior; and that Chrysostom means, saying, "Then is the body in best proportion when it has the best governor. But woman can never be the best governor, by reason that she, being spoiled [deprived] of the spirit of regiment, can never attain to that degree to be called or judged a good governor; because in the nature of all [every] woman lurks such vices as in good governors are not tolerable."[71] Which the same writer expresses in these words, "Womankind," says he, "is rash and fool-hardy; and their covetousness is like the gulf of hell, that is insatiable."[72] And therefore in another place, he wills that woman shall have nothing to do in judgment, in common affairs, or in the regiment of the commonwealth (because she is impatient of troubles), but that she shall live in tranquility and quietness. And if she has occasion to go from the house, that yet she shall have no matter of trouble, neither to follow her, neither to be offered unto her, as commonly there must be to such as bear authority.

And therefore yet again I repeat, that which before I have affirmed: to wit, that a woman promoted to sit in the seat of God (that is, to teach, to judge, or to reign above man) is a monster in nature, contumely to God, and a thing most repugnant to his will and ordinance. For he has deprived them, as before is proved, of speaking in the congregation, and has expressly forbidden them to usurp any kind of authority above man. How then will he suffer them to reign and have empire above realms and nations? He will never, I say, approve it, because it is a thing most repugnant to his perfect ordinance, as after shall be declared, and as the former scriptures have plainly given testimony. To the which to add anything were superfluous, were it not that the world is almost now come to that blindness, that whatsoever pleases not the princes and the multitude, the same is rejected as doctrine newly forged, and is condemned for heresy. I have therefore thought good to recite the minds of some ancient writers in the same matter, to the end that such as altogether be not blinded by the devil, may consider and understand this my judgment to be no new interpretation of God's scriptures, but to be the uniform consent of the most part of godly writers since the time of the apostles.

Quote:
Authority and government is of another nature and I do not believe it is appropriate for a sister to hold continuing authority in the church.


I do believe in a few places scriptures cleary state that is shameful for a nation to be governed by a women? maybe I am sorely mistaken.. I will try and find those verses.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/11/19 12:07Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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I do believe in a few places scriptures cleary state that is shameful for a nation to be governed by a women? maybe I am sorely mistaken.. I will try and find those verses.



that to promote a woman to bear rule or empire above any realm, nation, or city, is repugnant to nature, contumely [an insult] to God, and a thing most contrary to his revealed and approved ordinance; and because also, that some have promised (as I understand) a confutation of the same.
-John Knox

still can't find that verse? does it ring a bell with anyone?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/11/19 12:17Profile
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 Re:

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Well tackling your first question: Are women allowed to preach? and I would answer prophesy YES preach and teach NO.



Now we really are going to have to define 'preaching'. ;-) One of the words translated 'preaching' in the KJV is 'euaggelizO' or evangelise. It is the word used in Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ. I don't think this verse just means the apostles.

If we stick to the letter of the scripture this would make the distinction between preaching and teaching very important, as the scriptures clearly do not allow a sister to 'teach', but is preaching the same as teaching?


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/19 14:06Profile
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 Re:

I think they are different because the bible uses both words to express different things; I have singled out below a few sentences where they are both used in the same verses:


Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.

Here Jesus teaches in the synagogues, but was he also preaching there?


Acts 28:31
preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.

Here we have Paul preaching the kingdom of God, I have done a word search and the word for teach is not linked with the word 'gospel' or 'kingdom', the word preach is always used. I wonder what things Paul was teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ.


Colossians 1:28
Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

It seems as though preaching is connected to warning, and teaching is connected to wisdom.


I think you have said something similar already, it seems as though preaching is more public, more heraldic, more 'lively'; whereas teaching seems to be more private, more instructional.

Although I think preaching and teaching are different I do concede that someone teaching could flow into preaching, and someone preaching could flow into teaching.

Where does this leave us in regards to women? :-?


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Mark Nash

 2003/11/20 9:01Profile
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 Re:

Has anyone got any light to shed on this?


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Mark Nash

 2003/11/26 4:41Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Where does this leave us in regards to women? :-?


Hi Nasher
They should be 'given their place' not 'put in it'. :-D By which I really mean that I would prefer to open up as much as possible as long as it is consistent with scriptural parameters.

The reason I asked earlier about 'teachers' is that I wanted to provoke thought about the function of a teacher in the 1st century. For example, they would not be expounding Ephesians or the finer points of the Revelation as these writings simply didn't exist at that time. So what were they doing? I think they would be systemising 'revelation' and because this is is inevitably linked to authority I think that is the area which is forbidden to 'woman'.

There is a persistent link between teaching and authority in the scripture and I think this is where the prohibitions count. I don't think preaching in the sense of 'evangelise' or 'proclaim' is forbidden to 'woman'. Prayer and prophesy are specifically sanctioned as long as the woman is covered. (Now this could get another thread going! I suggest it be called 'why is 'man' not allowed to cover his head?' For those like myself who no longer have much natural covering that is the major issue. ;-) ) The particular prohibition is 'teaching' which is why I wanted to explore that area and, if possible, to distinguish things that differ.

The spectrum of Christian interpretation is very wide. At one extremity women have been constrained to absolute silence so that they are not even handed a hymn book at the beginning of the meeting. The opposite extremity is to say that these were merely cultural constraints and can be safely abandoned so that a woman may now be the 'senior elder' or 'ruling minister'.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/26 9:25Profile
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 Re:

Hi Philologos, I'm not familiar with 'systemising revelation', what is/was that?


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Mark Nash

 2003/11/26 10:03Profile
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 Re:

Hi Nasher
That's a good question. I think what I am searching for is a process as distinct from a crisis.

The secret things belong to God but the things that are revealed are ours forever. This was the testimony of Israel after God had given them the law. This foundational revelation became the responsibility of the priests; For the priest‘s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. Malachi 2:7 The priests 'held' the revelation but were not the original agents of the revelation. The foundational 'revelation' was added to through the testimony of the prophets and became part of the 'book' for which the priests held responsibility.

In Jewish history the greatest man after Moses is Ezra who taught the people in the company of the Levites; And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people, This day is holy unto the LORD your God; mourn not, nor weep. For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law. Nehemiah 8:9 Moses is the prophet, Ezra is the Teacher.

The priest (teachers of the law) seemed to consolidate the revelation. This seems to have been a pattern in church history too with a second man often 'systemising' the revelation of the first. e.g. Luther and Melanchthon, Fox and Barclay, Wesley and Clarke, Booth and Brengle.

I recognise that this is a hypothesis, but I see a pattern in the order of the gifts expressed in Ephesians 4 ie And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers. The pastor/teacher function coming at the end of the list. The apostle is foundational, the prophet is directional, the evangelist is expansionist, the pastor/teacher is conservationist. I think Timothy and Titus were almost certainly pastor/teachers. Note that these were not residential roles but itinerant functions. Timothy and Titus would have remained in situ for longer or shorter periods according to need.

When I write these things I am trying to feel the shape of the NT functions. Added to these itinerants were the local residential giftings which functioned within the local church.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/26 11:24Profile
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 Re:

Thanks Ron, would there be any difference where a person was teaching in regards to authority?

i.e. in a church building as opposed to a field.


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Mark Nash

 2003/11/27 4:11Profile





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