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 Re:

Quote:

PreachParsly wrote:
Luke 5:2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing [their] nets.

Luk 5:8 When Simon Peter saw [it], he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.


Luk 5:9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:


Luk 5:10 And so [was] also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.


Luk 6:13 And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

It depends on what you call instantly.. A chapter after meeeting them he called them Apostles.



My next question is, what changed from being 'a normal person' to 'being a disciple'.

What is classified as a Disciple? And why, as Ron stated, is it also a process?

**I'm talking biblical examples, i could care less on personal experiences, unless it brings light TO A SCRIPTURE...thanks**

 2005/9/28 14:34
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

This thread got me thinking about this passage“As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”(John 8:30-32, KJVS)
The passage is often reduced to 'the truth shall make you free' but that is a dangerous shorthand. If we unpack the passage we may see it more clearly. First this was addressed to some who, in some measure at least, had believed on Christ. This is often the purpose of the evangelist, to bring people to a point of 'faith in Christ' but this is not sufficient as the narrative indicates.
[u]If[/u] ye continue in my word, [u]then[/u] are ye my disciples indeed; This is a clear 'if-then' clause. 'being a disciple' then is not the consequence of 'having believed on Him' but of 'continuing in His word'. In other words 'believing on Him' might indicate a crisis but 'continuing' in His word indicates a process, and it is the process which created 'the disciple'.

And ye shall know the truthIt is only such disciples, who are continuing in His word, that 'will know the truth'. This kind of truth is not available to 'those who have believed on Him' but only to those who 'continue in His word'. This truth then is obviously not academic truth but dynamic truth; not facts but obedience.

the truth shall make you free.It is important to follow the flow of ideas here. It is not 'facts' which make men free. It is the truth received by men and women who are in right relationship to Jesus Christ, and right relationship is not guaranteed by the crisis of 'believing' but by the 'process' of abiding in His word.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/29 11:54Profile









 Re:

Wow, amazing. I totally forgot about that verse.

Great Ron.

 2005/9/29 13:46
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Ron,

Quote:
It is important to follow the flow of ideas here. It is not 'facts' which make men free. It is the truth received by men and women who are in right relationship to Jesus Christ, and right relationship is not guaranteed by the crisis of 'believing' but by the 'process' of abiding in His word.



I am currently reading [url=http://www.ccel.org/g/gurnall/armour/home.htm]THE CHRISTIAN IN COMPLETE ARMOUR[/url]which is free online for for those who wish to print it out a chapter at a time or so. I am not far into it- maybe 50 pages- but it is very rich and heavy reading. It is one of the major books Leonard Ravenhill recommends. The points the author makes seem to coincide with your previous post. It is a good read for me because I am very big on obedience- while the author demonstrates the necessity of abiding in Christ and His grace in order to do battle and prevail in our attempt to obey.

Yet, the enigma I keep facing in all my studies is the relationship between obedience and justification, and obedience and regeneration.

Quote:
This is a clear 'if-then' clause. 'being a disciple' then is not the consequence of 'having believed on Him' but of 'continuing in His word'. In other words 'believing on Him' might indicate a crisis but 'continuing' in His word indicates a process, and it is the process which created 'the disciple'.



It seems reasonable that a person must be regenerated in order to "continue in his word" as 'temporal obedience' seems to be evidence that either the person had not been regenerated in the beginning or they had been regenerated and had somehow "fallen from grace." In either case it seems that there is some kind of a relationship between continuing in His word and being a disciple that effects justification.

Is this really just an enigmatic soteriological issue- that can never be fully understood? Personally I cannot believe the Finney approach- but nor can I agree with unconditional eternal security. It seems most accurate to me that we can only have a present assurance of a final salvation- but the scriptures bo not provide for a future assurance of final salvation. The future assurance seems to depend on the whole "if- then" clause. What am I missing here?

God Bless


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/29 17:41Profile









 Re: Discipleship Unbiblical

Quote:
In either case it seems that there is some kind of a relationship between continuing in His word and being a disciple that effects justification.

Romans 1
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By [or, through] whom also we have access by faith

Robert,

I'm sure there's more to be said about this (by RonB maybe) but it strikes me that the 'continuing' is all too easily viewed from a distance - as if we are outside it (outside those whom we observe, perhaps, thinking they observe us in the same way) whereas my faith in Him is now. It is always now. Now is the only time it matters. This is what connects me to eternity - the I AM - my 'now' believing.

Hebrews 3
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, [u][b]if[/b] we hold[/u] the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

I think that could say '[u]if we keep holding[/u]'.

So while a historic moment of first faith does not ensure the next moment of faith, it's a good start. Only after one has been abiding in 'now' faith for a while, might one be described as 'continuing'. What you said here

Quote:
It seems most accurate to me that we can only have a present assurance of a final salvation

is spot on.

I'm now wondering if there is a difference between a follower and a disciple?

 2005/9/29 18:26









 Re:

I heard from a respected brother in the Lord, who devoted 3 entire years, *still continuing i hope* to searching the scriptures and dividing the word of Truth. He doesn't believe in the term 'are you saved' but rather says 'I am saved, going to be saved, and in the process of salvation'. The 2nd one he was convicted about. 'Yet to receive salvation' if you look throughout the bible it speaks about 'waiting for IT to come'. why? because it didn't come yet.

I don't want to confuse things.

And dorcas, your statement

Quote:
I'm now wondering if there is a difference between a follower and a disciple?


Is what I've been feeling about this topic, that something was wrong in my spirit, so I instead challenged everyone. That, really, there IS a differance.

Here is a thought to ponder. The crowd that followed Jesus, the 'great multitude', Christ said, it WASN'T for them to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom but only for the Disciples. Why? (You might say that some didn't confess Christ, but they were LITERALLY his followers, and SOME had to at least believe)

 2005/9/29 21:44
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Is this really just an enigmatic soteriological issue- that can never be fully understood? Personally I cannot believe the Finney approach- but nor can I agree with unconditional eternal security. It seems most accurate to me that we can only have a present assurance of a final salvation- but the scriptures bo not provide for a future assurance of final salvation. The future assurance seems to depend on the whole "if- then" clause. What am I missing here?


So we are restating the old question? We are really asking 'once justified, always justified'. Yes?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/9/30 3:39Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Here is a thought to ponder. The crowd that followed Jesus, the 'great multitude', Christ said, it WASN'T for them to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom but only for the Disciples. Why? (You might say that some didn't confess Christ, but they were LITERALLY his followers, and SOME had to at least believe)

Perhaps one of the clues here is that some words are 'relational'. Disciple is part of a 'matched pair'; you have to have a 'master' in order to have a 'disciple'. The word 'disciple' implies a 'master'; you can never really have 'disciple' on its own. There is a very telling comment from the Pharisees in “Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses’ disciples.” (John 9:28, KJVS) This plainly speaks of relationship. The Pharisees had no doubt seen from some of Christ's statements that he claimed an ultimate authority; "but I say unto you..." (Matt. 5:22,28,32,34,39,44)

"crowd' however is not a relational word. You can have crowd without a relationship. It is interesting to see how many 'relationship' words we use without thinking of the implications; believer, child, brother, son, saved, redeemed, servant, slave, apostle, body,

Picking up on your comments about 'believers', I always think it is very significant that John never uses the noun 'faith' in his gospel, but speaks of 'the believing ones' ; this is a construct from the verb. "faith" as the children's chorus tells us "is just believing what God says He will do". It is not a static possession to be measured, but a life process.

There are several places in John's gospel where it is made plain that there is a kind of 'believing' which God cannot build on.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/9/30 5:15Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Ron,

Quote:
So we are restating the old question? We are really asking 'once justified, always justified'. Yes?



Yes. I suppose that is the bottom line.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/30 15:35Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Robert
perhaps that should be another thread?
or even a return to [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=5112&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]this one?[/url]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/30 18:44Profile





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