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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Israel Christian Hoax? Are modern Jews the Old Testament chose people of God?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
We will need to be able, in our minds, to separate between promises for the 'seed' and promises to the covenant community.



When I think about the word seed (Gk. sperma) I am thinking of three primary things:

1: THE [u]S[/u]eed.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy [u]seed[/u], which is Christ. (Galatians 3:16 AV)

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the [u]seed[/u] should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (v19 AV)

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (v29 AV)

This is THE [u]S[/u]eed. Those who are in Christ (the Seed) are "Abraham's seed" in the same sense that those who are in Christ are sons of God- though Christ is the [u]S[/u]on of God.

2: The second is in a prophetic/geneological sense. We trace the geneology of the [u]S[/u]eed through various prophesies.

* Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall [u]thy seed[/u] be called. (Romans 9:7)

* Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (Romans 1:3)

* Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel (II Timothy 2:8)

*For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (Hebrews 2:16 and also 11:180

And of Paul tracing his lineage;

* I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (Romans 11:1)

* Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. (II Corinthians 11:22)

3: Sandwiched in the middle of the two above I see a group who were descendants to some degree or another of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were baptized into Moses and rejected the promised Seed. Paul gives their description:

* For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen [u]according to the flesh[/u]: (9:3)

This group that were his kinsman according to the flesh, even though they may not have been a pure blood "Hebrew of an Hebrew", seem to have been still considered his kinsman according to the flesh even though at the time of the writing of the epistles the Ark of the Covenant was not in the Holy of Holies (as the writer to the Hebrews stated concerning the mercy seat or seat of propitiation "of which we cannot now speak particularly", etc.) and the whole of the system was basically in shambles. It was propped up then by man's device. They had no mercy seat- so they altered the Laws halacically to keep things propped up. Hence- you make void the commandment by your tradition.

So it seems that as the Ark was gone even before the advent of our Lord- soon would be the Temple and the whole of the priesthood (Saducees at that time; not to fear, they just kept on making adjustments. They refused to see any of what happened to them as God's judgment). In this I see that though things were in shambles even in Paul's time- he still acknowledged the people as his "kinsman according to the flesh". They were lost spiritually- but kinsman physically.

I'll pause also for you comments...










_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/16 11:04Profile









 Re: Sorry for the interruption.

Ron, you asked a question in a post on the previous page, addressed to Glenn and me.

I guess, for a quick answer ... that is why I keep asking and waiting for that 1/3rd part so many times so far.
My e-sword is fighting with me, but when I get it operatable again, I'll look up that verse.


I'm pre-mil-post-trib, but not sure that I'm a dispensationalist or not. From what little I know, I think I'm not.
Wish I could say with more certainty, but it's never been a real issue to come up with me and also because I haven't really fully dissected that belief well enough yet.

Not to throw the subject, but I thought by your question, that I should bring that forward also.

Enjoying this discussion as a spectator.

Thanks !
Annie

 2005/9/17 10:52
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Ron, you asked a question in a post on the previous page, addressed to Glenn and me.


Annie, can you remind me what my question was? :-)

Quote:
I guess, for a quick answer ... that is why I keep asking and waiting for that 1/3rd part so many times so far.

The answer to this will be down the track somewhat. In fact, on the track I am on it may not be on our route at all. ;-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/17 16:07Profile









 Re:

Ron, I'm sorry, that was for Robert.

Two "R" names, for such a small brain is overload. HA !

Thank you though !

Annie

 2005/9/17 21:58
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Thank you everyone for your cordial respectful and inspiring post and comments. You have helped me a great deal in my knowledge and understanding, although I am still working out some thoughts and interpretations. I am so pleased and thank God that this hasn’t turned into some “I know more than you - I'm right and I WILL prove you wrong” type of discussion. I have gained a deeper respect for the posters on this thread for their tactful and respectful discourse.

I have a few questions at this point, so I would like to interject with a very brief testimony of sorts and then some Scriptural observations and questions as to interpretations and applications.

Here it goes -

I love the Word of God with all my heart and have read through the Bible numerous times (couple of dozen) with an insatiable hunger for God and Truth. I have always applied the principle of hermeneutics I have written about and posted on my website (http://www.thesearchforbiblicaltruth.org/hermeneutics.htm) and have tried as hard as I can put aside any preconceived notions and be led by the Holy Spirit as to meaning and interpretation.

I had an extensive theological and doctrinal education in my youth, (years ago) most of which I have chalked up as “modern christian” nonsense after reading the Scriptures as a simple believer. I was at the lowest point of human existence in utter misery, depression and despair on verge of death when I cried out in desperation to God and was compelled searched His Word for freedom, Truth and life. I was set free and born again thought the Word of God and His Holy Spirit. Praise God I am set free, a new creature in Christ and glad give my very life for the grace and freedom from bondage and despair He has so graciously bought for us with His blood on the cross. I was called to Christ a fresh after years of living like hell rejecting the lies twisted around Truth I was taught as a youth. I by the grace of God was shown that the Truth of Christ was outside knocking and not in the lies of the modern churches, cemeteries (seminaries) and Bible colleges, so I sought Him through His Word as a simple believer with a pure heart and thirst for His Truth.

I long to learn and grow in knowledge, and I know for sure that I don’t have all the answers, and I am 100% certain that some of my thinking and doctrine is wrong, but I stand bold on the word of God and speak His Truths (not mine) that He has shown and taught me regardless of the consequences. I have forsaken all to follow Him as a obedient love slave thirsting and hungering after His Heart, His Truth and His Word. I am simple humble believer who loves God and His Word with all my heart, mind and soul.

I love the whole word of God unfolding like the petals of a beautiful flower chapter by chapter, book by book. But the books of the major and minor prophets and the New Testament are the books that that ring most true to my heart and are my favorite to read. (if I dare make such a statement) With this brief testimony and a little history as to where “I am coming from“, I would like to pose the following questions and statements for contemplation and comment. Remember I am not looking for controversy and argument , but contemplation and comment, searching for the Truth of God and His Word. I know the difference between the two (contemplation - comment and controversy - argument) can become blurred and the later gets us nowhere - so I want to reiterate my purpose. I happy to admit I am wrong when I am wrong - let’s all be willing, happy and eager to do the same seeking after God with a meek, humble and contrite heart.

When I read the books of the major and minor prophets I am utterly flabbergasted at how closely ancient Israel resembles the modern American western church today. I can’t believe that the exact image of what we see in 2005 western American christianity was described so accurately in these books written about ancient Israel. It blows my mind that these are writing from thousands of years ago and not written last week or last year. (this has lead me to more of a “replacement theology” way of thinking) If you start at Isaiah and read through the end of the Old Testament, verse after verse, chapter after chapter, book after book scream MODERN AMERICAN WESTERN CHRISTIANITY!!!!!!! We modern western American christians are the epitome and exactly the same as these Old Testament Jews written about in the major and minor prophetic books. (one of the reason I like Wilkerson so much is his continual preaching from the Old Testament prophetic Books and how they relate so closely to the modern christian church - this “replacement theology” is new to me, but I would have to believe and assume Wilkerson is of that camp - right? or wrong?)

So when we see our pitiful condition so closely, accurately and almost exactly described in the books that describe the pitiful, wrath inspiring condition of the Old Testament Jews, how do we relate this to ourselves? Isn’t this the result of the “pressure” and “impending doom” and “urgency” felt and described by myself, brother Hans and many others on this forum? How are these “Major and Minor Prophetic” books (Isaiah - Malachi) supposed to be applied to modern christianity? Is “replacement theology” the worst case scenario? How does the book of Revelation play into this discussion?

Searching for Truth and contemplative prayerful discussion - not endless argument and backbiting trying to prove ones opinion right or wrong!!! :-)


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/9/18 2:25Profile









 Re:

Patrick, I like how you worded your post very much.

My husband and I have been in apologetic/discernment ministry for 25 yr.s. (I don't like that title "discernment" ministry though, but that's what they call it on the web.)
He knows more than I do of course. I get by more by just reading the Word, then in studying "other beliefs", as he has always felt led to do... and other friends of ours, have been in that same ministry almost as long as I've been alive .... but they all admit, that the more they know, the less they know .... Because we're talking about "GOD" here.

Ha - I've said it before, but our knowledge compared to HIS, is like a snowflake on the largest iceberg out there and even that's a poor analogy.
So I love to hear other's say that same thing.

We know in part, and Paul's words in Phil.3:9-14 still blow me away ... coming from him.

1Co 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

Ain't Paul great ?!

Anyhow, two verses came to mind, in how do we deal with this "pitiful condition" that we see, that you speak of.

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Jud 1:21-23 Keep yourselves in the LOVE of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
And of some have compassion, making a difference:
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


As far as this discussion goes... there too, I have also enjoyed it for the very reasons you have mentioned.


I must be honest and say, I do not adhere to the "replacement theology" as defined by most.

And that there is a "Remnant" the 1/3, that will be saved in the end, because it is part of the Promise, and I do see the promises to Zion (the physical Zion also) or Jerusalem & Israel, to be saved from the invading armies at The End and where Christ Himself will "land" (ha) at, and reign from ... so I do believe, Israel "is" The Holy Land ... but not behaving as such, so to speak, till HE returns.

Thank you Patrick, for your swell post here.
It's encouraged me also.

His Grace to us all.

Annie


 2005/9/18 3:04
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Thank you sister Annie,

I am not sure whether I am “replacement theology” or not. I think I might be, but I am not sure at this point. I think my thinking and Biblical interpretations tends to lean that way.

With that being said, how do relate the books of the major and minor prophets to modern Christianity? How do you feel the “Major and Minor Prophetic” books (Isaiah - Malachi) are supposed to be applied to modern Christianity? Is “replacement theology” the worst case scenario? How does the book of Revelation play into this discussion? And what do consider to be the remnant or 1/3 of which you speak and what Scriptures do you apply to your current understanding?


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/9/19 1:10Profile









 Re:

Hi Patrick,

Appreciate you brother.

I don't want to make my post too long, because I'd like to give it back to Ron and Robert, but just for a quick one here.
I'll post 6 Verses but it continues right on through to the entire next chapt, that I'll leave you to read, so I don't make such a long post of it.

God Bless you brother(s),
Annie


Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land..........

Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.{Rev 1:7}

Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. {Matt.26:31}

Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; [u]but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.[/u]

CONTINUED ON TO WHOLE OF CHAPTER 14

Glory to God !!!

 2005/9/19 1:34
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi ChristisKing,

Quote:
With that being said, how do relate the books of the major and minor prophets to modern Christianity?



My first thought here is to answer, that we relate the books of the major and minor prophets with caution. Many of the historical accounts are written as our ensamples and for our learning- so we can apply them as the Holy Spirit leads to our times. This is not a deductive process or something we do logically- it is a matter of the Holy Spirit leading.

Quote:
Is “replacement theology” the worst case scenario?



I don't know that it can be looked at in this way because really the doctrine only deals with the Church and its relationship to Israel. Messianics (and if you ask 2 you may get 3 opinions) view Israel as distinct from the Church, but at the same time as one substance as it were (heirs to the righteousness of God by faith). I do NOT know any Messianic Jews who believe that their non-believing fellow brethren are Saved. One of the most solumn moments in all my classroom experience was when the professor, a Messianic Zionist Jew, told the students that as he understood the scriptures there was no hope for those, his fellow Jews, who did not Trust in Messiah as Savior. He made the comments and then bowed and turned his head from us as if he were breaking down at the thought. He took a moment and gathered himself and we went on.

So I guess what I am saying is- that Messianic Jews believe they are an entity (Israel) in terms of their own unique identification as Jews existing alongside the non-Jewish members of the Ecclesia of God. Sort of like a circle within a circle. Not that they esteem themselves better- but just distinct. They would tell you that their uniqueness in Christ is maintained in terms of identity just as a man and woman maintain their identity as men and women, etc.. Actually the materials I have read are quite complex and don't really know if they understand them fully.

They esteem themselves as the "natural branches"- BUT, they view the root as Israel and not Christ (generally). They will tell the Gentiles that they were grafted into Israel. I generally agree in part and add to this the fact that Christ is the True Israel of God. He is the promised [u]S[/u]eed.

To natural Israel was the Law, promises, covenants, etc., but He saith not unto seeds as many, but unto thy Seed, which was Christ. Jews are naturally grafted into the Olive tree- but we are also considered Olive- but 'wild' by nature.

For if thou wert [u]cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature[/u] (Agrielaios), and wert graffed contrary to nature into a [u]good olive tree[/u] (Kallielaios): how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? (Romans 11:24)

Olives were and are used to make oil. The symbology is awesome. The one olive tree just grew wild and was grafted into the garden version. Israel was tended by God and cultivated through the knowledge of God- hence it is the Kallielaios variety. Yet, Christ is the Good Olive Tree. He IS the Word of God, covenant, Testator, Great High Priest, etc.

It really just boils down to the presence of the Holy Spirit. When we are grafted into Christ we are enabled to produce fruit.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/19 9:14Profile









 Re:

I dunno Robert. If folks don't see how God has made promises to the Remnant of Israel and how He has NOT turned His back on Israel, and that His were an Eternal Promise, and that they 'will' be saved in the end.... and some, not until His Appearing, then I think it's sad that they just don't read God's Word more "Literally" and knock off all of the spiritualizing of His Word and self-centering of all on just The 'Church', as we know it.

I don't know. Maybe if God lead, I'll post more Scripture later on in this.

It just breaks my heart that folks may think, "Aw God 'dumped' Israel and the promises to Abraham, for this new bunch." But there are tons of Scriptures saying that He will, in the end, bring all together under Christ, though some won't come until HE is seated or comes to Jerusalem.

So we never know "who" those are, that the Lord knows, that will be saved on That Day.

Thanks brother.
Love/Peace.

Annie

 2005/9/19 13:19





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