Well... you answered the question for me. I agree with you on your first paragraph.
I'm about out of time. I'm gonna be offline for about a week... I'll have to fill you in later.
| 2005/9/16 13:11|
Rowland Heights, CA
Krispy, to answer your question:
"Since there is such a big difference between the two streams of text, how than can you say, "The issue is not about which translation is so accurate and which one is not"?"
I say that, not to discount and disagree to the fact of the matter today. People have been deceived; people have been mislead--even with the uninfluenced translations from the Westcott and Hort's New Testament (as you know about the JW's). In fact, there are many people today who dance to the this modern-day Christendom based out serving the popular god of "mammon"--the god of financial wealth and "abundant" life they call it, but waving weapons of "words of faith" to get what they want out of God. I've seen it almost all my life: people who are supposed ministers of God but pose as wolves and steal from the gullible people who are in search of a better hope.
I know there's a mess out there--a huge mess, but I lay my complete confidence in the GOD who wrote the Holy Scriptures. The Person of GOD is very well capable of leading me and showing me what is of His nature and His will, and what is not. My point, in light of answering your question, is that I rely on the Spirit of God Who is the One who, by His Spirit, shows His Will--and He is the Author of these books/manuscripts that we're talking about. I know the Author of this Book and I trust to be guided by His Voice. Inevitably, the physical Bible itself and the fonts and texts (minuscules, etc) that are used to write it are just that--they're just text. It is the Life of God's Heart through these Words that makes this Book Alive. Jesus IS the Living Word--and He lives today. What I'm trying to say is that no matter how corrupted this world has become, and even the worse corruption that is in the so-called church (or mega churches for today's corporate-driven church businesses), I put my trust in Him who is Unchanging.
Hence, I said, "the issue is not about which translation is so accurate and which one is not," because I don't really put my trust in man's ability to translate. Granted, I use many of these English and Cebuano translations and refer back to their original manuscripts by which they were translated from. And since I don't speak ancient Koine Greek nor do I claim to even understand it all, I do what I just--just like anyone else in studying the Scriptures--but I don't have it all figured out. However, I do know this--the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac (whether I even transliterated those words properly or correctly for this purpose)--knows everything. I put my trust in His guidance of what His Words and His Will is through these scriptures (erroneous or accurate). And even so, the most beautiful thing about this (vain) argument is that when all is said and done, God still requires faith--and that you cannot escape. Faith, unlike our systems of organization and translation and the such, requires us to keep us eyes fixed on Him--Jesus--who is the author and perfector of it (Heb. 12:1-2). I'm not talking about the "faith" that many have been deceived to think as an incantation to summon things they want out of this physical life; no, I'm talking about the pure faith in Jesus--who is the promise and the hope beyond this finite life we tend to hold on so dearly.
So, while there may be billions of people who are lead astray into following the "god" of this world, I will put my trust in the Holy Spirit who is the Author of the Holy Scriptures in the first place. Those who do "have ears to hear" let them hear. If Jesus spoke in parables, then maybe God is no different in allowing what's going on in the world and church today. Those who are truly seeking after God Himself will find Him; those who are just looking for a reason to argue or a means to get what they want out of life, then they will have their reward. In a sense, it is almost like as if what God spoke to Isaiah has always been happening--even today:
He said, "Go, and tell this people:
'Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
Keep on looking, but do not understand.'
Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
Their ears dull,
And their eyes dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed."
Judah, during the time of their physical wealth and bundance (at least before they were sacked to exile into Babylon), have become so perfunctory/mechanical, that even in their religious services to God was rejected:
Isa. 1:14 "I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, they have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them."
In a sense, they have become deaf, although they could hear; they have become blind although they could see (at least physically). Just as it was during the time what Christ was here, He too spoke in parables lest those who are not after God Himself and His heart (such as the Pharisees, etc) would "see" and be "healed."
I know this topic can just go on and on like the Engergizer bunny (which is by the way man-made so it is finite and will sadly break down eventaully), so I will end my long reply with this:
God is all the matters, and if that pierce's anyone's heart to the pulp, then you "know" and "see" of what I have been talking about. If you just want to continue to "argue," then I guess God is not all that matters, other things seem to. But as for me, God in unchanged by this evil of this world; but He is moved by those whose hearts are loyal to Him.
2 Chronicles 16:9a "For the eyes of the LORD move to and fro throughout the earth that He may strongly support those whose heart is completely His."
In Christ Alone and not in myself,
| 2005/9/16 13:39||Profile|
I agree with most of what you wrote.
However, your post was all about YOU, and where YOUR trust is... and thats fine. If you have studied this issue (which is seems you have), and you have drawn these conclusions, then God bless ya.
But I try not to be so focussed on myself. My concern is not that I be right about this, my concern is what I see in the church today. My concern is what I see going on in the world today. I'm not real concerned about you. I'm concerned about the people out there that are in watered down churches that have removed the blood from their message, and are not preaching salvation. My concern is about the worldliness that has crept into the church.
My argument is not with YOU... and thats where you have missed it. I'm not on a crusade to convert everyone to the KJV. Do I think everyone should dump the modern versions and pick up the KJV? Yea... of course I do. But what I am more concerned about is that people actually take this issue seriously and take the time to educate themselves. To be ignorant is no excuse.
If you go back over the threads I've been a part of, I hardly ever argue with someone who has studied this issue and drawn a different conclusion. I may debate them to a certain extent, but for the most part I want people to get off their butts and find this stuff out for themselves.
You've done that... you've drawn a different conclusion. I disagree with your conclusion, but I agree with most of what you've written here. So, thats cool with me.
Most Christians are ignorant about the text issues. Some come on here and say ignorant things like "The NIV is just the KJV in modern language". I admit I dont have much patience for comments like that... but I try to get people like that to actually consider that they have much to learn concerning this.
Hopefully I'v been succesfull at it.
| 2005/9/16 14:29|
I will just post the differences in the NASB vs the KJV, since this posting is : "What about the NASB?."
NASB "And there was evening and there was morning, one day."
KJV "And the evening and the morning were the first day."
NASB "they journeyed east"
KJV "they journeyed from the east"
Isaiah 14:12 Rev 2:26/28 and Rev 22:16
Who is the morning star?
How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
He who overcomes...I will give him the morning star.
I, Jesus...I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning"
he that overcometh...I will give him the morning star
I Jesus ...I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
1 John 5:7-8
NASB "For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."
KJV "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
Lots more. Let me know or send me a private message if you want to know more. I'll take the time and type them out if you are interested.
| 2005/9/16 15:18||Profile|
"No Bible translation is perfect."
I don't want to stir up trouble, but with that statement, you are basically saying that we don't have an accurate translation today.
That would mean either God cannot preserve His Word, or chose not to. By saying it is even 99.5% pure, is saying it is .5% corrupted. I believe God to be a God of absolutes.
Everyone in the world is learning English. I was just in Korea where the locals will go out of their way to have a conversasion with an English speaking person.
Disagree if you will, but it seems reasonable to me that God would purposely have a translation ready for a world that is moving toward a particular language. Many families from other cultures don't even teach their children their native language, in hopes that the children would be accepted in the English-speaking 'business' world.
I believe God has preserved His Word, and my faith is not in the translators, the men that funded the translation, or any other person, but God only. And if he were giving us a roadmap to live by, shouldn't it be 100% trustworthy.
Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
I could be wrong in everything I say. So could you. So could all of us. Jesus died for sinners. We are not God. We are sinners. Only God is good. Only God is perfect. All men are bad. Even the writers of the bible were corrupt. God didn't write the bible. Men wrote the bible. No man that ever walked the earth was God in flesh, except for Jesus Christ.
That is the whole point.
You are right to say there is one truth. You are right to say God is a God of absolutes. Why else would He send His son to die if He didn't believe in His own absolute law?
The whole point though is this: Jesus is the truth. Jesus Christ is the absolute. The only absolute there is in the universe, the only God there is.....Jesus Christ. He is Lord over the universe and earth. Jesus is supreme.
Only God is perfect and good. If we say the bible is perfect and call it God's Word, then we are saying the bible is of God. By this, we are saying the bible is God. Do you believe this? Do you believe the bible is God?
In John 1, it says the Word became flesh. Jesus is the Word. By this we are saying Jesus is God. He is of God and is God. Do you believe Jesus is God?
"And if he were giving us a roadmap to live by, shouldn't it be 100% trustworthy."
The law became flesh. The law became flesh and was hung on the cross. We are to be Christ-like. We are to mimic Christ. The standard by which all things will be judged is Jesus.
When we goto Heaven, God isn't going to whip out a bible and say, "See this scripture right here. You didn't follow it." Rather, you will be judged by the standard of Jesus. Do you have Jesus or not? When God looks upon your heart, is it covered by the blood of Jesus?
Shouldn't the bible be 100% trustworthy? I used to believe this. I used to believe the bible had no error whatsoever. However, people have proved that wrong to me. There are many scriptures that contradict. Just last week I read a scripture where Paul called himself the "father" of the Corinthians. Jesus said specifically there was only one father and that was God. So who is right, Paul or Jesus?
When Jesus taught, He often used parables. He used imaginary stories to teach people about life. These parables were not true stories, they were imaginary. They were made up stories. Through these stories, He was able to deliver a message to the people. Those that listened heard what He had to say and took it in. They learned from imaginary stories.
The bible is the same way (important note: I am not saying the bible is imaginary). The bible bears an important message (just like the stories). God has painstakingly preserved this message. The bible bears this message and has been preserved. However, it is made true, not because of pen and paper. It is made true by the Holy Spirit. We call the bible living and alive not because we sit back and watch it get up and walk around. (At least, I hope you have never seen a bible walk around.) It is made alive by the Holy Spirit.
A distant non-Christian friend asked me once why all Christians turn to the bible. It didn't make any sense to her. She had read the bible many times and it seemed like an outdated text.
When I read the bible though, it is like God speaking to me. It just doesn't have the same effect for her. It makes my heart sing. It stirs my thoughts and grabs my attention. Why? Is it because the bible is 100% accurate?
No. It is because of the Holy Spirit that lives in my heart. It rejoices to hear the message of Christ. The bible doesn't bear truth. The Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit, is inside me. And when the bible is read, it stirs the Spirit of Truth and the Spirit reveals truth to me. The bible may be true, but it is not Truth. Only Jesus is Truth. (I know this may be a bit confusing. I will try to explain.)
The bible is a guide. It is good for teaching and instruction. It is like a road map or a tour guide. However, it is not law. It is not authority. There is a difference between a road map, and a driver. The driver has authority. The driver takes you places whether you want to go there or not. A road map is suggestive. It says, "This is a good path." But it's not absolute.
We need the bible as a road map. Additionally, we need God to be the driver of the car reading the road map. Whenever we try to read the map without God, and drive ourselves places, what happens? We end up lost.
God did not give us a 100% perfect bible. This is important. Why? Because God did not want us to base our faith on a book. He wants us to put all our faith in His son, Jesus Christ. If the bible were perfect, then we could base our faith on the bible, and we wouldn't need Jesus. We could easily place every argument and belief on the bible. (That is what the Jehovah's Witnesses do. They believe in the bible and give the bible authority but deny Jesus. They deny Jesus because no where in the bible does it say, "Jesus is God." So, they don't believe Jesus is God. They think Jesus is a Lord, but not The Lord.)
Please do not mistake my words. I am not saying the bible is worthless. God uses more than the bible to speak to people. If we said the bible was worthless, we would have to say all His believers are worthless too. The bible is good for teaching and instructing. It is a guide. It is helpful and very useful.
However, the bible is not law. The bible is not absolute. The bible is not God. Jesus is God and Lord.
If you disagree with me, then I respect that. As I said, I could be wrong. But that's the whole point: Only Jesus is right.
I am not an authority on the bible or anything else for that matter.
| 2005/9/16 17:11||Profile|
Having read your posting on the authority of scripture and your beliefs on these matters i certainly would agree with you on a number of points.
1. Jesus Christ is right.
2. The Holy Spirit reveals all truth.
Although as i read your posting i was reminded of the early Fathers of the Protestant Church two of the reasons for them no longer to stay within the Catholic Church were:
1. Justification by Faith (Alone) Romans 5v1
2. The Absolute authority of the word of God.
When we look even at those who wrote the scriptures Christ's disciples:
Matthew,Mark,luke,John,Peter,James everything they wrote was under the authority of God.
The Lord Jesus tells them in John 14verse 26
BUT THE COMFORTER, WHICH IS THE HOLY GHOST, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, AND BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU.
When we look at the Apostle Paul who by "revelation" wrote the epistles, he tells us that he is a preacher of Christ not by teaching but by Revelation(Galatians 1)
Jude a servant of Jesus Christ is prophetic under the direction of the Holy Spirit in the few verses that he wrote.
So brother we see in the New Testament, that it is Holy Spirit inspired and revealed by revelation.
I know that men have tried to tamper with Scripture over the years and others have tried to remove the authority of it.I myself am no authority when it comes to scripture but i know
You can rely on God's word.
Rev. 22 v18,19.
| 2005/9/16 18:19||Profile|
Phoenix, Arizona USA
The bible is a guide. It is good for teaching and instruction. It is like a road map or a tour guide. However, it is not law. It is not authority.
Blake, you are a precious brother in Christ but I believe that you do err in this matter.
Allow me to quote from an article on biblical innerancy...
[i]The authority of Jesus Christ and of Scripture are one. As our Prophet, Jesus testified that the Scriptures cannot be broken. As our Priest and King, He devoted His earthly life to fulfilling the law and the prophets, even dying in obedience to the words of messianic prophecy. Thus as He saw Scripture attesting Him and His authority, so by His own submission to Scripture He attested its authority.As He bowed to His Father's instruction given in His Bible(our Old Testament), so He requires His disciples to do--not, however,in isolation but in conjunction with the apostolic witness to Himself that He undertook to inspire by his gift of the Holy Spirit. So Christians show themselves faithful servants of their Lord by bowing to the divine instruction given in the prophetic and apostolic writings that together make up our Bible.
By authenticating each other's authority, Christ and Scripture coalesce into a single fount of authority. The Biblically-interpreted Christ and the Christ-centered, Christ-proclaiming Bible are from this standpoint one. As from the fact of inspiration we infer that what Scripture says, God says, so from the revealed relation between Jesus Christ and Scripture we may equally declare that what Scripture says,Christ says.[/i]
Here is a link to the full article [url=http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/chicago.stm.txt]Biblical Innerancy[/url]
| 2005/9/16 20:25||Profile|
Dear Tom and Ron,
When Jesus walked the earth, the scriptures as we know them were law. They were the law as given by God unto the Israelites. The scriptures were also well preserved. The ten commandments were considered Holy and locked in an Ark. The other scriptures were kept at the center of the temple where only the most high priests could come into thier presence. By this, God showed their authority.
Then Christ came. He upheld the law. He fullfilled the law. He also represented the law and the law died with Him on the cross. By this, we were set free from the law, and "scriptures" as they stood at the time of Jesus.
When Jesus walked the earth, the Pharisees used the law toward thier own benefit. Despite the fact that all law was based on the principle of love, they upheld law as being absolute, and then used it toward thier own selfish benefit.
Jesus, however, rebelled against them and thier usage of the law in this manner. They tried to use the law selfishly to bring out error in Christ. One such case was when Christ was accused of breaking the Sabbath. Christ's disciples broke and ate grain on the Sabbath. On another Sabbath, Christ healed a man. (Matthew 12:1-13, Mark 2:18-28, Luke 6:1-11)
Christ's response to them was simple: "I am master even of the Sabbath."
Christ is above the law. He is master of the law. He has been given all authority.
As Christians, we are accused of breaking old testament laws and sinning. If scriptures cannot be broken, then all Christians are living in sin by eating pigs and shaving our beards. However, Jesus rose above the law and set us free from it.
New testament scripture is not law. It was written as a guide for us. It is not authority. Jesus is the authority even over the bible.
If what Ron has quoted is true, then in essence what this person is saying is that the bible is a part of God. We then have a four part God: Son, Holy Spirit, Father, and the bible. It does not make sense. The bible is not God. It bears no authority.
"bowing to the divine instruction given in the prophetic and apostolic writings that together make up our Bible."
I am also sorry, but I bow down to no one other than Christ. He is my master. He is my God. I believe in one God, and He is Jesus.
Thank you Ron for the link. I have read "THE CHICAGO STATEMENT ON BIBLICAL INERRANCY."
I used to think that if the bible had any error in it that it was no good. If the bible had but one error, then we should throw the whole thing out the window. But then, someone said this to me, "God speaks through men, and they are wrong and faulty." If God can use men who often make mistakes to speak his Word, why then should we assume the bible is without error?
If the bible were perfect, it would be Holy. And if it were Holy, then we (imperfect man) could not be in the presense of such a Holy text. The ten commandments were considered Holy and thus God sealed them away in an ark.
The bible as we know it has not been preserved in such a way. The earliest scriptural texts that we have are not the originals. Not to mention, we do not know which greek and hebrews texts we do have are the most accurate. There is a great debate going on this thread alone about which one is most accurate. However, no one has enough proof to make us all say, "Yes, that text is correct and accurate." Rather, we all debate.
I used to be a die hard bible inerrancy believer. I would argue against people saying the bible bears no fault. My mentality was this: if there was a fault in it, then how can I believe it.
We can believe it because of Jesus. He speaks to our hearts through the bible. Just as Jesus speaks to our hearts through preachers and faulty men.
We are not followers of the apostles who wrote the bible. We are followers of Christ. To say the bible is without error and perfect is to say the bible is God. It is to give diety to the apostles. It is to say, "I am a follower of the bible."
I am sorry, but I follow Christ, and Christ alone.
The bible is a book passed on by God in order to help us worship Jesus. The bible was written to help us, not to rule us. There is a difference. It is not our master. Just as each of us are brothers and sisters who help each other, but our God and master is Christ.
I do hope this helps you see my point.
| 2005/9/17 9:09||Profile|
Could someone tell me, was there a "basic tenent of faith" that we had to subscribe to, to be a member here ?
It was over 2 months that I signed on and I can't really remember that far back, but somewhere I had to pop a yes or no into some statement of faith thing.
Thanks if someone could answer and if there was one ... could you point me to it.
Thanks you all.
Edit to add:
Krispy, have you seen this e-book -
| 2005/9/17 9:33|
Phoenix, Arizona USA
If God can use men who often make mistakes to speak his Word, why then should we assume the bible is without error?
You might want to seek out a better argument to defend your position that the Bible contains errors. This argument you are using contradicts itself for if we apply its logic to your own words then you are in error, for you are a man, who makes mistakes.
There are many scriptures that contradict. Just last week I read a scripture where Paul called himself the "father" of the Corinthians. Jesus said specifically there was only one father and that was God. So who is right, Paul or Jesus?
I assume you were reading 1 Cor 4:15. This seems hardly a contradiction to any words of Jesus, not even a difficulty really. Paul was indeed a spiritual father to those who were born of the Spirit through his ministry. It's a wonderful look into Paul's heart to see that he considered his relationship with the Corinthians in a paternal light and not just as some kind of ruler. In the very next verse Paul exhorts them to follow his example, exactly what any good father should do with his children. All Christians, all ministers, all fathers, should live so that their people may follow their example.
Let's look for a moment at just what is necessary to transfer a "difficulty" into the category of contradiction. First, we must be certain we have read the passage in context and understood correctly the sense in which it uses words. Second, we must possess all available knowledge on the matter. Third, that no further light can be shed on it by advancing knowledge, textual reasearch, archaeology, etc...
Difficulties do not make objections. As Robert Horn has said in [i]The Book That Speaks for Itself[/i],"Difficulties are to be grappled with and problems are to drive us to seek clearer light; but until such a time as we have total and final light on any issue we are in no position to affirm, "here is a proven error, an unquestionable objection to an infallible Bible.""
In light of these criteria for establishing contradictions, please expand on your statement, "there are many Scriptures that contradict".
| 2005/9/17 14:30||Profile|