I could not have asked for a better illustration of my point. A one sentece answer with no backing but a bias - I'm sorry. If you can prove it to me from scripture than wonderful. If all you have to offer is an unbiblical cessationist or border line cessationist bias and a concensus orthodoxy than I'm sorry but that just isn't good enough. Listen I'm trying to reason with you - but no one seems to be open to that here. My posts are generally answered with a pridefully poetic "I am a watchman on the wall, Purify the Temple!" type of answer - I'm sorry but that just doesn't work. People who are out doing the work of the ministry and laboring, seeking the Lord with all of their heart, white hot burning with passion who have criticisms-that's one thing. But swivel chair critics who thumb through their KJV, and concordance from behind a computer - people with slick religious sounding answers - well they just bug me. Why? Because I used to be one! My dead brothers and sisters I ask you honestly to forgive my sarcasm, and please hear my heart. The scripture does warn us to not believe every Spirit - but this indicates that there is a Spirit we should believe. My fear is that most people are too afraid of receiving or believing a false Spirit that they reject the true. I'm not afraid of receiving a false spirit. I am a son, not an orphan. When I ask my Father for the Holy Spirit, there is not some super demon in the heavens who snatches up my prayers and sends down a counterfeit. I am not a prosperity preaching, purpose-driven, kind of guy - I abhor those things. I am simpy giving you a clear warning to be careful how you judge the things of God. If you were to use the exact same criteria of judging ministries on the life of Jesus he to would come up as a false prophet - if you're honest with yourselves (theres a novel idea) you know this is true.
| 2005/9/1 14:55||Profile|
While asking you to forgive my sarcasm I refered to you as my "dead brothers and sisters". I'm sorry it was supposed to read "My dear brothers and sisters". That makes a world of difference! SORRY! I know you're not dead - my mistake!
| 2005/9/1 14:59||Profile|
I am a classical pentecostal, I just have a pressing emphasis on the new birth. I have seen all the other stuff and have watched the people remain unchanged in most cases. I have seen things that would scare most people. Yet, were they changed? On a more tolerant side I used to say, "I don't care if they go down in the gifts as long as they get up in the fruits." Surely there will be excesses everywhere. We need to keep our focus on new birth and infilling of the Spirit (to some that is one and the same) ;-)
Robert Wurtz II
| 2005/9/1 15:17||Profile|
Hmmm... nice response. Big words too. Impressive.
I have written extensively on this website... some 1300 posts. I would recommend you dig and see what I have written in the past concerning these issues.
I had to learn the hard way that personally attacking people, and speaking out of igorance about what I think people on here believe makes me looks foolish.
If you continue, you will find that it will make you look foolish as well.
| 2005/9/1 15:36|
| Dear "fireinmybones" Jeff|
I agree with you, in your dismay over these "watchmen". The way the Lord has been dealing with me on these has been to rebuke with silence. There's another post just excoriating a famous evangelist, and in my flesh, I wanted to answer back....but no.
No answer, let it die.
(Krispy, this isnt nothing against you)
| 2005/9/1 15:46|
I do not want you to get the wrong impression from me. I have been doing as our brother Neil suggested and protesting with silence - yet every now and then I allow my "self" to get the better of me. I am sure that I spoke to critically and harshly. If I did I apologize to you.
I did not in anyway mean to assume I know your heart and make a blanket judgment concerning you. Yet it seems that is what many on this site do on a regular basis! For instance a few months back there was a post entitled "False Prophets Reprinting America is to young to Die". I soon found the "False Prophet" being referred to was a dear friend and former professor of mine named Dr. Larry Martin. The poster knew nothing of Dr. Martin personally, I do. In fact he is one of the most humbles, passionate, and prayerful men of God I know. Yet our shoot from the hip criticisms place a cultic stigma on an individual who is in fact an incredible blessing to the church. Do you see my frustration? I apologize for being to sharp with my tongue - thats something I have to be careful of and I blew it this time around.
My only fear is we could completely miss what God is doing - or learning from what He has done, be demonizing the leaders of these movements. I am fully aware that there are counterfeits out there - yet a counterfeit only proves that there is a real. I would not reject a real 100 dollar bill simply because there are counterfeits out there. Rather I would look at the tell-tale signs to see wether mine was genuine. This is all I'm asking - that we look at the tell-tale signs, what Jesus called "fruit". Let us not look at flamboyant personalities, manifestations, or the like and make snap judgements - rather lets check the fruit. Yes this individual may have had some strange mannerisms, and perhaps some excesses - yet did the people closest to them see the fruit of the Spirit in their lives? Did their ministries produce long lasting fruit? Even the fact that some who were healed ended up dying doesn't prove that nothing happened! Jesus himself said, "Repent lest a worse thing come upon you." Lets just say the one to whom He gave that commandment did not repent and in fact became more sick - would that discredit Jesus' ministry? Certainly not! What would we say if Miss Kuhlman were to have prayed for the blind by making mud using here own saliva? We would deem such behavior as cultic. What if she made ministry decisions by rolling dice - we would find some cultic nuances to this as well. Yet these things are all completely Biblical. (I'm not encouraging their use, only saying that the Bible is filled with things that appear "weird" to us.) Leonard Ravenhill spoke well of Miss Kuhlman and even traveled with the "likes" of William Branham. David Wilkerson did rallies with Miss Kuhlman - these are men that we highly respect. Obviosly they saw while she was living that she was a Godly woman.
As previosly stated my concern is simply that we will miss what God is doing or miss learning from what He has done simply because we are afraid of excesses and human vessels. Personally I fear lack more than excess. If it would be profitable (and if it would generate Godly, fair, discussion) I will start a thread dealing with strange phenomena that accompanied past revivals which we all hail as being "from God". Perhaps it would help us to see that "there is nothing new under the sun." Would this be a good or bad idea?
I pray the Lords blessing on you, I apologize for shooting my mouth off and losing my temper . . .
| 2005/9/1 16:26||Profile|
| Re: Dear "fireinmybones" Jeff|
(Krispy, this isnt nothing against you)
Yea, I figured you were talking about the Billy Graham thread... and that thread is completely uncalled for. No problem, Neil.
| 2005/9/1 16:33|
Much forgiveness from me to you, brother. We disagree on this, so lets just leave it at that. I dont have time today to get into a big debate about it. I've written extensively about my views on the WOF movement... dont care to rehash right now.
| 2005/9/1 16:35|
| Re: Was Kathryn Kuhlman even Saved?|
This has really become a heated discussion. Do you realize that I had an aim when I posted this thread?
Paul THOUGHT he was doing God a favour when he persecuted the church, but instead he was working against everything God was doing. He was a persecutor. Now, what changed Paul? What made him not only to stop what he was doing previously, but changed him into a vessel that God could use. Nothing short of a meeting with the living God. Who in turn made Paul to be a new creature.
My question is: Was Kathryn Kuhlman ever really changed by God? Was she ever born again? Not who approved her or was influenced by her. Not if she was brought up in a Christian home.
If a prophet/tess testifies falsely on ONE instance, he/she is a false prophet. What did she do to God's name if she prophesied falsely? Did God bring souls to repentance? Dont forget that God is in the saving business, not in the healing business. Jesus died to save sinners, not to heal the sick. He healed the sick before His death.
Have you ever thought why there are so much worldliness in the churches today? Why people play with sin? Because they've gotten used to the wrong gospel! Narrow is the way that leads to life and broad the way that leads to damnation.
In conclusion, May we put aside our opinions and preferences and even what our consciences and feelings allow us and let us "get dead serious with God", as Corrie ten Boom said once. Oh Lord send us true revival, show us Thyself!
In His love,
| 2005/9/1 16:39||Profile|
| Re: Was Kathryn Kuhlman even Saved?|
2) Propagating the "slain in the Spirit" phenomena, that has absolutely no Biblical grounds.
When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.
And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
| 2005/9/1 17:16||Profile|