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 Re: The bible is not "the Word"

Blake, Thank you for stepping outside tradition, very few have tried and many have failed.

The bible is a collection of the spoken words of God and a revelation of the Word who became flesh.

The bible is not the word of God, tho my contempories will disagree.

The bible is constantly being written, because God has not ceased from speaking, thus the word of God is still in production.

I thank God that the New Testement saints only had the Old Testement for their reference, for when the New Testement was written, no doubt there was much dispute as the validity of them being, "the word of God".

My traditionalist friends will pull out their verses, "that if anyone adds or takes away........."

Blah blah blah blah blah blah

"Let us move unto perfection, not laying again the foundation........"

If the foundation is laid, why continue on laying another and another and another. Sunday after Sunday, the same foundation is being laid for the church, they have the building material, but they stand around like city workers, contantly beautifying the foundation, water baptism, repentance, Jesus name, Trinity, etc..and to top it all fighting over which bible transation to use.

If you fall in love with Jesus and He makes you His own, while you are reading the NIV, who are we to question and stand before God and accuse our new brother saying, "but LORD he doesn't read the right bible, the KJV is your bible", and the LORD will say unto you, "But I love him and he has a perfect heart towards me, leave him alone, come follow me."

Karl

 2005/8/25 0:31









 Re:

Blake wrote:

Quote:
The bible is not God. It bears witness to Jesus Christ. The bible is good for teaching, correcting, and instructing. It is not a tool for judging others, or condemning people, or for forcing people into belief. The bible bears no authority, and when you say it does, you are stripping authority from Christ. The bible is just a book. All authority has been given to Christ.



Very good reading, loved your rebuttal.

You had wrote, "the bible is not God".

There are far too many people that consider the King James Version to be thier God. No, they deny that it is thier God, but in action, it is! It is sad, but I have found those who do not read it are condemned to hell by KJV activists.

I came into a relationship with the LORD Jesus thru the Living Bible. Thru heart wrenching repentance the Holy Spirit used that bible to reach me.

Today, I read the KJV, it's my prefered version, but I am not restricted to it's use, I can use many, but I like it's rendering, I sometimes confer to the Lamsa translation.

When I was ultra religious, I would condemn anyone who was reading anything other than the KJV, until I was brought back to my own experince on how the LORD brought me into His love thru the Spirit by reading the Living Bible.

I quickly abandoned that notion, and I forbade no one, lest I interfer into something that the Holy Spirit is doing. If I introduced the KJV into a tender moment of what the LORD is doing, I might make things worse for that person, the harshness of the wording of the KJV might cause the reader to wither away trying to read english that was meant for those 500 years ago.

By the way, I have a wonderful old book of fermons that is on the croff dating back to 1762. The text is difficult to read at firft, for example the preacher writes, "I fleep the fleep of death".

The F was used as an S, the englifh language was still in development. If you removed your teeth, you could read thif with no problem.

The S was used only to pluralize something like, "fleeps = sleeps"

When I firft opened the well tight volume, I thought it waf a book of Latin, until I looked into it further.

Having faid that, the original verfion was even worfe then thif 1762 book that I have. The KJV was revised and some books were removed, updating the english to modern times in that day it was revised. If they revised it then and those who hold to it as thee word of God, then whats wrong in revising it again for this generation? English will evolve into another lanuage one day and the bible will have to be translated again.

Karl

 2005/8/25 1:18
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Blake, Thank you for stepping outside tradition, very few have tried and many have failed.

To step outside the concept of verbal inspiration and inerrancy is to step outside orthodox Christianity. Traditions are good or bad depending upon their source. Paul passed traditions on to the church at Corinth; traditions that he had received from Christ. I am not traditional as regards modes of worship or service but some things have been placed into our hands and we will be held responsible for what we do with them.

Notice the exquisite care of the wording of “and that from a child thou hast known the sacred letters, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith which [is] in Christ Jesus. Every scripture [is] divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;” (2Tim. 3:15-16, DRBY)Paul is careful NOT to say that the scriptures give salvation, but that they are able to make one 'wise' unto salvation. The salvation itself, is through faith in Christ Jesus. He goes on to say that every scrripture is 'god-breathed'. For a Jew writing to a Jew (Timothy's mother was a Jew) 'the scriptures' had specific content and limits. They were described in the threefold division of 'the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms'. This is not a reference to single books but to the threefold division of the Jew's hold writings.

These scriptures were referred to by Christ as 'the word of God' (in answer to the original question) in “If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;” (John 10:35, KJVS) You may notice two signficant things from this verse. First that Jesus equated the 'word of God' with the 'scripture' and secondly that he regarded 'the scripture' (singular) as a single entity. The Bible is ultimately not many books but one book with many chapters. Here is anothe illustration of this fact: “For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.” (1Tim. 5:18, KJVS) This verse has the word 'scripture' in the singular but 'the scripture' which is next quoted is an amalgum of “Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.” (Deut. 25:4, KJVS)

and

“And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.” (Luke 10:7, KJVS) There is no distinction here, the inspiration of Moses is of the same nature as the narrative of Luke; this is one scripture. This is why we must always interpret the Bible as One Book. It was the comment 'it is [u]also[/u] written' that thwarted Satan's second temptation in the wilderness. Satan had quoted 'a verse' but Christ added another. Campbell Morgan used to say the truth always lies in 'it is [u]also[/u] written'.

So Paul and Christ before him received the entire Jewish corpus as 'God-breathed' scripture. Christ believed implicitly and explicitly in the verbal inspiration and inerrancy of scripture; so did Paul. Peter regarded Paul's epistles as having equal inspiration “And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2Pet. 3:15-16, KJVS) 'the other scriptures' actually means the 'remaining scriptures'. A clear statement that Peter regarded Paul's letters as scripture.

This belief in the verbal inspiration and inerrancy of the scriptures has been the 'traditional' stewardship of the Church down the ages. Any view less than this is 'sub-Christian'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/25 4:40Profile









 Re:

Philologos finally showed up… praise God! It’s like the cavalry riding in. Glad to see you cowboy-up!

In other posts...

Karl (Healingwaters) said:

Quote:
” There are far too many people that consider the King James Version to be thier God. No, they deny that it is thier God, but in action, it is! It is sad, but I have found those who do not read it are condemned to hell by KJV activists.”



Karl, you know I’m your friend, so I hope you accept this in the spirit in which I’m saying it… but that statement is broad and general… and false. If you want to narrow it down and say that there are a few KJV-O’s who have turned it into an idol, I could possibly agree with that. If you want to narrow it down and say that there are a few KJV-O’s who would (if they could) condemn all others to hell, I could possibly agree with that. But I personally know many many KJV-O’s of varying degrees… and I know of NONE of them who have made it an idol, nor condemn people to hell for reading a different version. What you said is typical of people who argue against the KJV, and it has no basis in reality. It’s a lie.

Karl said:
Quote:
My traditionalist friends will pull out their verses, "that if anyone adds or takes away........." Blah blah blah blah blah blah



I would advise you to not be so flippant about God’s Word. That smacks of blasphemey.

Karl said:
Quote:
Having faid that, the original verfion was even worfe then thif 1762 book that I have. The KJV was revised and some books were removed, updating the english to modern times in that day it was revised. If they revised it then and those who hold to it as thee word of God, then whats wrong in revising it again for this generation? English will evolve into another lanuage one day and the bible will have to be translated again.



Karl, you show here that you lack even the basic understanding of what the debate over versions is even about. I’m all for updating archaic words in the KJV as need be. But the modern versions are not even based on the same Greek Text as the KJV. I feel like a broken record on this point… but one would think that after someone has been on this forum after a period of time, they would at least understand this fact… yet ignorance marches on.

I love you dearly, my friend… as you know. But I can not be silent as you make these false declarations.

Krispy

 2005/8/25 6:51
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3235
Texas

 Re:

WoW! this thread is still going? has anyone figured out if the Bible is the Word yet? I sure wished I could wake up to some good old Philippians 4:8 type threads tells us to "think on the things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of a good report, virtuous, and of praise." Father in the name of Jesus I know someone will come here today with a praise report we can all be lifted up by, Father I really thought as Christians and your children we were to lift up so I pray we will get to lifting, in Jesus name I pray Amen. :-)


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2005/8/25 9:38Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Many still don't understand. The Lord has asked me to deliver this last message.

The message the bible bears is infallible. The message was delivered by God through men. The Holy Spirit spoke unto prophets who in turn wrote the words down. God speaks through prophets today just as He did years ago.

This is important. The Holy Spirit spoke through men. Men wrote the bible. The words belong to men. The message belongs to God. When God wrote the ten commandments, He did so Himself. His own finger wrote the very text. If God had written the bible Himself, it would be considered Holy. There would be one bible in one translation, and none of us could go near it because it would be Holy. It would be preserved throughout all of time in a single state.

However, we know the bible has been translated in many different languages and written in many different versions. Every version of the bible God has preserved His message.(Although not everyone will accept this.) However, the wording is different in each. (As a side note: If you are not sure about which bible to use, ask Jesus. Who else should know? And just because He says to use one version, does not mean the others are less valid. Christ speaks to each person in accord to their needs. We all have different ways of worshipping the same God. We are different people. And if someone asks you which bible to use, say "this is the bible the Lord has directed me to use, but you should not trust me, I am human, you should pray about it and put your trust in Jesus. He is God." )

The bible has no authority apart from God. It is just a book. If the bible had authority, then we would have to accept one bible as the official bible. That is not true. There is no one true bible. Even the ancient greek texts by which today's bibles (including the KJV) are based upon copies. We do not have the original texts. We do not have the original letters written by Paul. We do not have the original books of the bible. There is no one true bible, and no matter how much people want to believe it, there is not. God made it this way intentionally, because He doesn't want people to base their faith on the bible. Faith, as Paul said, is based upon things unseen. Our faith is based upon Christ, the promise of God turned flesh.

God has taken great care throughout history to preserve the message of the bible. This is true. However, as we all know, there are immense derivations between the different version. I can also show you passages where the bible itself conflicts. For instance:

Matthew 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

Luke 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

When Mary and Mary went to the tomb of Christ, they were met by one Angel as it says in Matthew or two Angels as it says in Luke? Which was it, one angel or two?

This small detail shows errancy in the bible. People try to justify it and say, "Well, it doesn't disagree. There were both one angel and two."

The bible bears a message that is inerrant. The message about Jesus is not hindered by this small detail. It doesn't matter whether there was one angel or two. The testimony is still valid because the message is in agreement.

It also important to note that neither Matthew or Luke was present at the tomb. Rather, it was two women Mary and Mary who found the tomb empty. God chose two women to testify first about His resurrection. (So much for the theory that "men always come first".)

The message of the bible God has preserve in blood over history. Even still, this message has no power without the Holy Spirit. The message does not become alive until it is backed by the Holy Spirit. I can tell a man every day for eternity that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected on the third day. However, until that man believes it, the message means nothing. And that man cannot believe the message, until the Holy Spirit comes down from Heaven and speaks to the man's heart. This cannot happen, until that man calls upon the name of Christ.

If the bible has authority and power, all we would have to do is read it to a person, and they would instantly be saved. Rather, the bible is used for teaching. We use it to tell people about the message of God. We use it to teach them about the Word of God, about Jesus.

Let me give you another illustration. Let us say that God sends a prophet to speak His message. This prophet goes forth and preaches the Word of God. He says everything God tells Him to say. The Holy Spirit fills this man, and Jesus gives Him the words to say. Now, this man is speaking the message and Word of God. However, should we call this man, "The Word of God." No, the man is not the Word, he is just speaking the Word. This man has no power or authority. He is merely a vessel for God to use.

Likewise, the bible is a vessel of God's Word. We can say it is "the living Word of God" only because it is alive in us. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit, the Word is made alive. The Word is within us. It is inside. Only when the Word is inside of us does the bible have any life. When we are saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, the bible comes to life. We are drawn to it's words and they have power to convict us. This is not because the bible has authority and power. No. It is because the Spirit living inside of us, Christ in us, that has power and authority.

You can read the bible to someone who does not have the Holy Spirit, and it will have no effect. In fact, it will confuse them. They will not understand the message it bears. However, when you read the bible to someone filled with the Holy Spirit, the bible has the power to draw their attention.

Please do not mistake these words. I am not saying we should go out and follow our flesh. I am not saying we should discard the bible and it's teaching. I am not saying that the bible is faulty book.

I am saying that we should not turn the bible into God. We should not elevate the text of the bible above Christ. We cannot read or understand the bible unless we have the Holy Spirit to guide us. Even when we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we still have free will. We can still deny the Holy Spirit. (If we couldn't, then Christians would never sin.) Thus, whenever we read the bible, we should first pray and ask Jesus to open our hearts and minds to what He is trying to say.

The bible also speaks more than one single message. I have heard one person say, "This scripture said this to me" and another say, "Well, it said this to me." It was two totally different things. So who was right? They both were. There messages didn't conflict they were just telling the same thing from two different perspectives.

You spoke of absolute truth in Christianity. Indeed, there is absolute truth. Jesus is the truth. He is the absolute. You must understand what this means. To say Jesus is the absolute truth is to say He is God. Only God, who is at the center of everything can be absolute. He is the only thing that doesn't change. He is constant. He is. Everything else, God created.

This is important. Only God can be God. There is only one God. Only God can be absolute truth. There is no greater truth than God.

Everything else, has been created by God. And as we know by looking around, God loves variety. He does not make replicas of anything. There are no two trees exactly alike. No two finger prints, exactly alike. No two snowflakes exactly alike. Rather, humanity in all it's corruption seeks for ways to make copies. God creates originals.

Thus, Jesus is the only truth of the universe. There is nothing greater. There is no greater authority. Jesus is Lord. This is key: Jesus is Lord.

Jesus is God's Word. He is the Word turned flesh. There is nothing greater than Jesus.

Some people have given the bible more authority than Christ. They say the bible is absolute truth. That cannot be. You cannot have two truths. Is the bible truth or is Jesus truth? Which is it?

The bible is just a book. Pick one up and tell me different. When you give the bible more authority than Christ, you are idolizing a book. You are worshipping a book. You are basing your faith on a book. How silly is that? I carried a bible around with me for many years and it did nothing for me. Then, I met Jesus and I was saved. Praise the Lord!!! After I was saved, the bible came alive to me. I read it from cover to cover. Why? Because Jesus made it alive. Jesus was inside me and so His Spirit gave power to the message inside.

You also asked, "How can you be so sure of your spiritual hearing?" How can you be so sure of your salvation? How do you know you are saved? Is it because the bible says so? Or is it because Jesus saved you?

God speaks to us in many ways, not just through the bible. A great challenge is learning how to recognize His voice. It is something we spend an entire lifetime learning. As Christians, we belong to Jesus. We should always seek after Him. Paul said he died daily. Every morning he sacrificed his life to Christ. Should we do any less?

You must also understand this. It is true God is constant, true, absolute, and unchanging. He would not give conflicting or mixed messages. We don't know what all God has planned. We are just human beings. God has a plan that is greater than we can imagine. How should we ever know how He should choose to work.

When God called Luther to protest against the Catholic church, it was in direct disobedience to the bible. The bible says we should submit unto authorities and government. (Romans 13:1) However, Luther disobeyed this command. The Spirit told him differently. What should we say about this then? Should we say that Luther was directed by the Devil or should we say the bible is wrong?

It is neither. Christ is greater than the bible. Christ is greater than the law. When accused of breaking the sabbath, Jesus said He was greater than the Sabbath.

As Christians, we are to follow Jesus. If Christ convicts your heart and calls you to a position that conflicts with popular teaching, if He asks you to do something and you do not, then you are sinning.

People are afraid of this, however. They want the bible to be an absolute truth, an official standard, a book of laws. They are afraid because without a law, without an official bible, then how can they judge others? How can they label others false teachers? If the bible is not an authority, then how can they know who is right and who is wrong? Who do they trust? How do they get away with sin in darkness?

You see, when you make the bible authoritative and official, then you turn it into an unbreakable law. You say, "The bible says this and it can be no other way." It is final. It is absolute. It is law. Then, you can sit and say, "Well, I can get away with this sin, because it's not in the bible. And I can treat women like lesser creatures, because it says men are better in the bible. If I follow all these commands, I will look good and righteous. I am a good person because I follow the bible. That person is a sinner because they don't follow the bible, and the bible say this. I have the power to judge others, because no one can defy the bible. It is law."

This contradicts the whole message of the bible. This is exactly what the Pharisees did when Jesus came. They used the law to make themselves righteous, just like some people today are using the bible to make themselves righteous. The message of the bible centers around love and the heart.

When people give into the Holy Spirit, they are filled with the fruit of the Spirit. When people truly follow Christ, they are never lead astray.

Additionally, there is the issue of interpretation. The bible may be easily confused and misinterpreted. The message is perfect and infallible. However, the words may be confusing or difficult to understand. Before I was saved, I tried many times to read the bible. I could not make any sense of it. I have had a friend who is an English Literary Scholar tell me she could read and understand any old English text, but she could not make sense of the bible. When I was saved, though, reading the bible was easy. Why? Not because I suddenly became an expert. It was all because of the Holy Spirit.

As you can see by this website, and many other books throughout the ages, the bible is discussed in great debate even among Christians. Even though we have the Holy Spirit, we still make errors. We still may misinterpret scripture. I have made mistakes in the past. Christ continually helps me grow. The most horrid state we can be in as Christians is to be so arrogant to think that we cannot be wrong. When this happens, we do not have a teachable Spirit. We have blocked off the Spirit and can no longer grow.

Thus, it is ever so important to seek out Christ in everything we do. When we read the bible, we should pray and ask Jesus to guide us. When we are being challenged, we should pray and ask Christ to help us understand. We should always follow the Spirit first. And if it seems like there is a conflict, we should pray about it.

Follow Jesus. I will follow the same counsel.

Lastly, these words are my own, but the message above came from Christ. He asked me to speak this. I am not going to attempt to prove this to anyone. I will tell you straight up, do not trust me. I am a man. I am fallible. Trust in Jesus. Pray and ask Him about this message, especially if you feel the Spirit stirring inside of you.

I am not going to be so bold as to say I am right or righteous. And I am definitely not better than anyone. I am going to say that I will continue to pray.

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/8/25 9:40Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote: "What is you faith association ???"

I follow Jesus Christ only. He is my Lord and savoir.


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/8/25 9:44Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3235
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

beenblake wrote:
Many still don't understand. The Lord has asked me to deliver this last message.
Blake



WoW!!! Father that Prayer was answered fast! I guess if I prayed for all the starving folks on earth to be feed today could possibly come that fast?

Well I will ask because it might Father, In the name of Jesus could you see that all the starving folks on this beautiful earth you created be feed today, and because you are such an abundant Father make that the best meal they have ever had in your son Jesus name I pray Amen.


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2005/8/25 9:53Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ginnyrose,

"Quote:....why are you asking this question? Are you trying to worm your away around something the Scriptures is asking you to do but do not want to do it?"

I will be honest with you, although people will not believe it and they will judge and persecute me because of it. However, since you asked so sincerely, how can I not be generous in return?

Jesus laid this whole thing on my heart. When He spoke to me about it, I did not believe at first, but I knew it in my heart to be true. And then, He asked me to post it on this website which I knew would not be well accepted. I told Him no at first. A few weeks passed. He pushed me and pushed me until I came down very sick. I was dizzy and felt as though I would pass out for two days. I could barely stand. So, I finally said, "Lord, I will write the question, but you must send someone else to deliver the first message."

The message was delivered, and then the Lord prompted me to write the rest. So, I wrote as He directed.

The irony of this is that once I stood on the other side of the debate. I once debated this with someone else. It is amazing how Christ moves.

I will say the same thing I have said to everyone else: Do not trust me. Trust in Jesus. Do not believe me. Believe in Jesus. I am nothing. Christ is everything.

May Christ direct all our paths.

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/8/25 9:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The Lord has asked me to deliver this last message.



[b]Promise??[/b]

Quote:
I will be honest with you, although people will not believe it and they will judge and persecute me because of it.



I have judged your teaching, but not you. You say you are a believer... and I accept that. But your teaching is faulty to the core. Persecuted? Read Foxe's Book of Martyrs, and then talk to me about persecution. Start a house church in China and get caught... then talk to me about persecution. Convert people to Christianity in an Islamic country ... then talk to me about persecution. You're not being persecuted, and it would be refreshing to see you stop trying to validate your false doctrine by claiming to be persecuted when you're not.

Your post is just a rehash of the other posts you wrote. Some truth... much error.

The Jesus of the Bible did not tell you to deliver this message. You better check which Jesus you're following, my dear friend.

[i]2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.[/i]

You said earlier that you would simplify all this for us. So far you have not delivered. Wake me up when you do...

[i]2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.[/i]

I would like to recommend that everyone stop responding to this thread, and just let it die. It's getting rediculous.

Krispy

 2005/8/25 9:59





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