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Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Before the fall man was allowed to eat plants etc., God did not command man not to eat animals, why? we do not know, it could be for several reasons; here are a couple of possibilities:

1. Man did not need animal meat to survive:
And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.

2. Man ruled the animals but the animals were not afraid of them, i.e. they were close 'friends' (much closer than person or animal is today):
Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."


After the fall, when Sin entered (i.e. it already existed before Adam) the world, so did Death. Here we see the first animal sacrifice performed by God himself to cover their sin:
Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.


Remember that the only command God had given to man was:
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat

It was not a breaking of a command of man only eating green plants that caused him to fall into sin as you have said, there was no such command!

It was not even the fall that caused God to say that now man can eat animals, it is only after the flood!

The reason why God allows man to eat animals after the flood could be due to the dramatic environment change it produced (which is another interesting topic), however lets be clear about this: it was not as a direct result of the fall.

A reason why animals had fear and dread after the flood is because man could now hunt and kill them for food.


Jake, you didn't answer my questions about you being a vegetarian and the reasons for it.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2003/12/9 10:40Profile









 Re:

I am a vegetarian, but not a vegan. Health is one reason. Environmental concerns is another. The spread of disease is another. Equity is another.

A former head of the National Institute of Health wrote that if meat was a new product it would not be allowed on the market because cooked meat is far too carcinogenic. Animal production is highly pollutive and is ravaging our enviroment. Health experts are now predicting an viral pandemic and the source of this is predicted to be chickens kept for food. The many unnaturally crowded animals kept for food are vectors for infectious diseases.

Finally, I recognize that God gave us every seed bearing plant for good reason. The tools of the hunt are the tools of war. Plants are medicine as well as food, however we have not known "Every" seed bearing plant because we were diverted by scavenging, hunting and then a nomadic lifestyle. As a result we fail to learn what God commanded and today 99% of flowering plants have not been tested for medicinal properties. But the 1% that has been tested account for 40% of our medicines. Think about the vast storehouse of knowledge we have forgone because of our choice to kill and eat animals. I believe we would have discovered agriculture thousands of years earlier if Cain had not become the restless wanderer, chasing after game across the African plains.

 2003/12/9 11:23
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

your quote: I believe we would have discovered agriculture thousands of years earlier if Cain had not become the restless wanderer, chasing after game across the African plains.

Jake, more speculation. Cain actually built the first city in defiance of God's command to be a restless wanderer.

When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2003/12/9 11:43Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The tools of the hunt are the tools of war.



Are you saying that because a tool can be used for war that the tool itself is bad?

Were the tools Noah used to make the ark (e.g. some sort of chopping / cutting implement) bad?

Are my hands bad because they can be used as a fist to fight someone?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2003/12/9 12:02Profile









 Re:


The tools themselves are not bad. The agressive predatory practice of hunting was very bad for us because it took us away from our reliance on "every seed bearing plant" for food. This was a peaceful process of living. It was inevitable that nomadic hunters became warriors because of territorial and tribal concerns. If we had concentrated on developing tools for sedentary agriculture that did not develop in us the aggression required for hunting, war would have been unthinkable.

 2003/12/9 12:35









 Re:


It is curious that immediately after the fall from grace, God gives us "animal skins" to wear. I don't think this is a coincidence.

 2003/12/9 12:36
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

your quote:It is curious that immediately after the fall from grace, God gives us "animal skins" to wear. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Adam and Eve tried to cover their nakedness with figleaves. This is indicative of man's attempt to deal with his sin. This is DIY salvation and we can imagine how successful the effort was.

God provided leather clothes (makes me think of that Fox man again ;-) ) to cover their nakedness. The implication being that the first blood shed on earth was shed by God in order to provide a covering for sinners.

Here is your 'coincidence'; this is God setting the scene for centuries to follow by showing that only by shed blood would man be fit to enter the presence of God. The blood that would finally effect this was not of bulls and goats but the blood of His own Son, by whom we now draw near to God.

This passage is not teaching anything to do with the human race becoming carnevores. It is sowing seed-truth that would be reaped generations later by Paul And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2003/12/9 13:15Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Everyone seems to be looking at the result of something much more basic to the understanding of why man is fallen.

Paul writes, "You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections.' 2 Corinthians 6:12 Paul then begins to teach about the desires of men. The idea of what we yoke ourselve to. His solution is given to us in these words, "Come out from among them and be seperate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean." verse 17.

Many believe this passage pretains to our relationships with worldly people or fallen man. The true question is why do we associate with people of this nature? It is because we hold on to the same desires that they do. Please bear with me.

We are created in the image of Adam. One of the attributes of God is faithfulness. Adam also had this attribute. We also have this attribute. Man seeks to be faithful to something. When we teach that God created us with an emptiness which can only be filled by Him. In essence, this precept is defined by faithfulness. What motivates us, why do we seek to become what our heart gives us a passion to do?

Adam chose to walk away from God. The essence of the fall can be defined by the absence of God's Holy Spirit giving man that direction or knowledge of God's will. Only living by God's will, can man be filled by the fulness of Him.

The fall of man means that man is dead spiritually. Man has only his self as the focus of his knowledge. He seeks to find something to be faithful to, which will satisfy him. As he learns from this world his nature only become more depraved because there is not understanding, there is not wisdom, because the only truth that exists, exists in God.

Jesus taught, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again," '(this is seeking wisdom and fulfillment in this world), "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst,..." (this represents the revelation of God to those who seek Jesus)

"Behold I have come-in the volume of the book it is written of Me-TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD," Hebrews 10:7 His creation will only find God's fulness as they learn from our High Priest to do His will.

Finally, the fall from God, the loss of the Holy Spirits' counsel is the reason all men sin and why all are condemned. There is nothing outside of God's grace teaching us where truth exists. Salvation is revelation.

in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/15 11:27Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jeff, you wrote Finally, the fall from God, the loss of the Holy Spirits' counsel is the reason all men sin and why all are condemned. There is nothing outside of God's grace teaching us where truth exists. Salvation is revelation

In all my other posts on original sin (my choice of title would be congenital) I have carefully avoided the word 'condemnation' because I wanted to get the ground established before we moved on to this. Condemnation is the consequence of someone having been proved 'guilty'. Personally I believe in congenital sin but NOT in congenital guilt. That is, I do not believe God holds me responsible for Adam's sin. I do not believe that I will go to hell for Adam's sin. Adam's 'condemnation' (his penalty) was banishment from the immediate presence of God and that condemnation I shared by first birth.

As you say, if I understand you correctly, Adam chose self-knowledge rather than the dependence upon God represented by the tree of Life. Initially his sin was independence which hardened into rebellion. (it was mirrored again in Saul, Israel's first legitimate king). Adam opened the door of the human race to Sin and Death came in behind. This occured in the moment of Adam's disobedience. Physical death was part of the consequence; that passed to me too.

When a man is put back into right relationship with God through justification and regeneration a new way of life becomes possible. He (she) walks in the Spirit and does not fulfil the lust of the flesh. The order is important here. We do not restrain the lust of the flesh and thereby walk in the Spirit. We listen to what He says and in obedience lies the outworking of our salvation.

Your phrase is 'Salvation is revelation'. I would prefer 'the outworking of salvation is by revelation.' We live by faith. Faith is right response to revelation. But it is God who both works and wills; the dynamic and the desire are all God's gift to us. We work out what He has worked in and we do it by 'abiding in Him, and allowing His word to abide in us'.

But we cannot be saved just by obeying the revelation. We must be brought out of Sin and Death and receive a new inward law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which frees us (in a moment) from the law of Sin and Death. Let me express it in a historical context. Israel was brought out of Egypt without raising a finger; God made His arm bare. But to enter the promised land they had to fight for every inch, under the continual direction of Joshua (Jesus).

So by a sovereign act of regeneration God brings us out of the old, endues us with new life and becomes our Captain. Then salvation, His life within, must be manifested in daily obediences to His command.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2003/12/16 15:04Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Hi Ron,

I am not at all aware of these terms people use to explain what someone else defined as positions of doctrine held.
What I do have is the Scriptures. And so we are back to Romans 5.

vs 16..."And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the JUDGEMENT which came from one offense RESULTED in CONDEMNATION, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification."

vs 18..."Therefore, as through one man's offense JUDGEMENT came to ALL MEN, RESULTING IN CONDEMNATION, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came TO ALL MEN, resulting in justification of life."

Please explain how all are not condemned prior to the Holy Spirit providing cousel to fallen man.

Also going back to what I said about why all are condemned. What do you think about the choice of men and why they yoke themselves to either self or the Holy Spirit?

Back at you
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/16 16:03Profile





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