Poster | Thread |
| Re: But after this the.... | | ccchhhrrriiisss,
Thank you for your thoughts here. As it probably obvious from what I post, I feel that many of the ideas coming forth on the separation of the 'rapture' from the second coming, are partly because of not understanding the 'English' as it was spoken in the 17th century. I use the KJV mostly, and then look at the other translations to see whether I'm 'getting' it, and [i]frequently[/i] look back at the Hebrew or Greek for clarification. Sometimes I'm none the wiser, but, it helps to open up the possible differences to my understanding.
Even when I read all the scripture which is brought forth about the rapture, I can't understand why this should be a different event from the Second Coming, mainly because things happen so 'quickly' in the Spirit. Christ is quite able to raise up all believers at once. It doesn't need 'time' for us to receive our resurrection bodies and our robes of white.
Christ coming with His saints, is what those who are not Christ's will see. What will we see? Have we any way of knowing? This is the 'trouble' with visions. They are a way of communicating across the divide between time and eternity. I believe these things will 'be', but what it will [i]feel like[/i] to be part of it, or whether we will feel as if we are doing what the prophecies indicate pictorially, is difficult to decide. After all, when Christ said He would separate the sheep from the goats, He didn't mean that people would suddenly [i]look like[/i] sheep and goats. It was a figurative way of explaining the meaning of that 'judgment'.
letsgetbusy,
When you pray (when any of us pray) in the Spirit, we are more conscious of eternity then when we are doing something else. But by receiving the Holy Spirit, you are receiving the I AM - the always now God - into your being. He who is eternal, is in you. What will happen when we die, or the Lord comes, is we will cease to be bound by time, but much of what we do now - communing with Him - will continue just as it always has, since we received Him.
This is another reason I believe the interpretations of scripture which set everything out as if it will look like 'down here' (for want of a better phrase), which have things happening one after another in a linear progression, are misleading. Eternity is all one. It is all NOW. Everything will happen at once and time will be all over. Instantly. If there is time after that, it will be 'new' time. Things which have been prophesied to happen 'in' time, will happen before time ends.
Stever,
When it says the ungodly will not stand in the judgment, it doesn't mean they won't be there, it means because they are ungodly, they will be condemned. Believers who 'stand' in judgment are not standing on their feet, they are 'standing' (uncondemned) in the righteousness of Christ.
On rewards, I have a question for you....
Suppose I'm right in my interpretation of 1 Cor 3, and the only reward is Christ Himself - the Bridegroom for His Bride - will you be disappointed? Would it change how you live now? Would you spend more time with Him and less time doing things? (Don't worry, I ask myself the same question!) Would you alter anything at all, if you thought that you were not in line for gold, silver or precious stones? Honestly? |
| 2005/8/13 12:51 | |
| Re: | | Stever,
Please explain to me how we have been in the last days since Christ? Last days is meaningless unless it refers to 24hour days.
Quote:
Many believe that the Lord will return in 2 PROPHETIC DAYS, or two thousand years. The time is short!
Where do they get this from in scripture, please?
Also, is there a solitary reference to 'bema' in the Greek in the New Testament? Because if there isn't, you could be envisioning yourself into a completely manmade concept, rather than God's. |
| 2005/8/13 13:01 | | ccchhhrrriiisss Member
Joined: 2003/11/23 Posts: 4779
| Re: | | Hi Stever...! Quote:
"Ccchhhrrriiisss said:
Again, there are many who believe that there are two seperate judgments -- one for the believer and one for the non-believer. YET NEARLY EVERY VERSE CONCERNING JUDGMENT SEEMS TO POINT THAT THERE WILL BE BOTH SHEEP AND GOATS PRESENT AT THE JUDGMENT.
Stever's response:
Please quote scripture for your statement that I have capitalized above- you are in error."
Perhaps you didn't look up the Scripture references contained at the end of my last post. They refer to a judgment where ALL -- both believers and unbelievers -- are present. Many of the verses in your response also seem to indicate a [u]single[/u] judgment (if you continue reading the entire chapter). For instance, you quoted I Corinthians 5:10. It determines that ALL will stand before the "Judgment Seat of Christ" (according to the "Two Judgment" theory, this is usually the judgment specified for Christians). It goes on to say, "...[i]that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad[/i]."
Again, the lesson that you included on the judgment is quite commonly accepted among theologians and television preachers. Yet there is so little Scripture to actually vouch for it, and most of what is presented is [i]interpretive[/i] at best.
While I do not know for certain whether there is one judgment or two, I thought that my post was clear on the suggestion of [i]timelessness[/i] in the realm of eternity. The concept of time (as I mentioned in the earlier posts) is a concept created by God for this current realm. Eternity is not bound by time. Thus, a person who dies may "awaken" unconfined by the concept. This could explain how God "[i]knew[/i]" us before we were born, and how God knows the end from the beginning, and how John was permitted to see the future, and how the writer of Genesis was able to see the "beginning." It could also explain the verses that support how God knows our outcome -- but we are still given a free will. In eternity, perhaps everything else is history. Thus, perhaps when we "awaken" in eternity, we may stand with those who died generations later. Such a theory could also explain how there are supposedly "conflicting" verses talking about what happens after death. But I suppose this could be discussed in a seperate thread.
It seems to me that most people who embrace the "two judgment" theory also embrace a quasi-calvinist approach of salvation (once saved/always saved). I know several preachers who use this as support for their belief that we cannot be judged alongside the sinner.
I used to be convinced that there are two seperate judgment days. But I arrived at that conclusion because of what I was taught and presented at church, rather than having critically studyed the subject on my own. After quite a bit of study, I decided that I am now quite unsure. I have heard believers criticize such an approach to doctrine as being dangerously "simple minded." However, I feel that way about those who jump on a doctrinal bandwagon without truly considering any alternatives.
There are other controversial topics that are commonly accepted among modern churches with very little direct supporting evidence, like "Did Jesus go to Hell and take the keys from the devil?" And of course, that topic would need to be discussed in a seperate thread as well.
Perhaps it should be suggested that those who consider this topic might be open to the possibility of being incorrect in position -- and that no firm position should be taken unless you know the certainty of what you believe.
:-) _________________ Christopher
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| 2005/8/13 13:23 | Profile |
| Re: | | dorcas wrote:
Stever,
Please explain to me how we have been in the last days since Christ? Last days is meaningless unless it refers to 24hour days.
Quote:
Many believe that the Lord will return in 2 PROPHETIC DAYS, or two thousand years. The time is short!
Where do they get this from in scripture, please?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Stever's response:
Acts 2: 17 that took place at Pentecost tells us that we are now in the "last days"- a specific period of time that is prophesized throughout the Old Testament and referred to as fact in the New Testament. The signs referred to only happened after Pentecost:
17. And it shall come to pass in the LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Hebrews 1 confirms to us that we are now in the LAST DAYS 1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2. Hath in THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; XXXXXXXXXXX 2 Peter tells us about the last days and how they will end (the last days) with the "Day of the Lord". We are presently in the "last days" and have been in them for over 2,000 years:
3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 2 Timothy 3 tells us more about this time, these LAST DAYS that is a description of today:
1. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4. Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 10. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11. Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Some Old Testament Prophetic references to the LAST DAYS that we are presently in, since the death and resurrection of Christ:
Jacob 49:1 1. And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
What is Jacob referring to?
Genesis 49:10-11 10. The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. 11. Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Isaiah 2 tells us more of the last days: 2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 5. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Micah 4: 1-2. But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
God bless,
Stever
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| 2005/8/13 13:39 | |
| Re: | | Cchhrriiss said:
Perhaps you didn't look up the Scripture references contained at the end of my last post. They refer to a judgment where ALL -- both believers and unbelievers -- are present. Many of the verses in your response also seem to indicate a single judgment (if you continue reading the entire chapter). For instance, you quoted I Corinthians 5:10. It determines that ALL will stand before the "Judgment Seat of Christ" (according to the "Two Judgment" theory, this is usually the judgment specified for Christians). It goes on to say, "...that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Stever's response: You must ask yourself who was Paul talking to? Who was this letter addressed to? The Church at Corinth full of Christian believers. Further, lets look at every reference to this special judgment, not just the one you quoted. If you want to change Church doctrine, that goes all the back to the Apostles, then you need more than just one reference to try and do it. Also, I notice in your statement that you say specifically: "I used to be convinced that there are two seperate judgment days. But I arrived at that conclusion because of what I was taught and presented at church, rather than having critically studyed the subject on my own. After quite a bit of study, I decided that I am now quite unsure. I have heard believers criticize such an approach to doctrine as being dangerously "simple minded." However, I feel that way about those who jump on a doctrinal bandwagon without truly considering any alternatives."
What is missing from your statement above in regards to your conclusion above? It is the Holy Spirit!. The Holy Spirit is the one who leads the Christian believer into all truth. Any reference to the Holy Spirit above is painfully missing, and we are left with reference to your own study, that is full of the flesh. The Holy Spirit is missing from your personal Bible Study, and all we have left is you own opinion.
I Corinthians 5:10. states: " 10. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world."
So, I guess you have misquoted me. Let's do our own Bible study, and lets invite the Holy Spirit in to "quicken" (make alive) God's Word to us:
1 Cor 3: tells us that all of the people that go through this judgment will be saved at the end of it. This tells me that it is not even close to the Great White Throne where people are judged and sent to hell: 6. I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.
You referenced 2 Cor 5:6-11. Who is this addressed to??? It is specifically addressed to the Church at Corinth, not to the outside world. It is addressed to believers in Jesus Christ: 6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10. FOR WE MUST ALL APPEAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; THAT EVERY ONE MAY RECEIVE THE THINGS DONE IN HIS BODY, ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OR BAD. 11. KNOWING THEREFORE THE TERROR OF THE LORD, WE PERSUADE MEN; BUT WE ARE MADE MANIFEST UNTO GOD; AND I TRUST ALSO ARE MADE MANIFEST IN YOUR CONSCIENCES.
I don't want to beat this to death. If you want to change Church doctrine you will need more than your own flesh to do it.
God bless,
Stever
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| 2005/8/13 15:02 | |
| Re: But after this the LAST DAY according to John | | Stever,
Thank you for those scriptures. The use of the plural for days implies a period of time, as you've been saying. However, when the writer to the Hebrews used it, he simply meant these most recent days - the ones at the end of time so far. He wasn't meaning it prophetically in the way the others do with regard to the rising of false teachers and so on. This becomes clear when you take the rest of Hebrews into consideration.
A few more thoughts to add to our discussion.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the [u]last day[/u].
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the [u]last day[/u].
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the [u]last day[/u].
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the [u]last day[/u].
John 7:37 In the [u]last day[/u], that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the [u]last day[/u].
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the [u]last day[/u].
I have posted these verses, because John is the only one who uses the singular of 'day'.
I have included 7:37, because it links the last day of the feast, prophetically with the last day of the days which have preceded - the day of salvation / the day in which the Holy Spirit was made available, echoed at the end of Revelation 22 - God's last appeal to the world.
Being as John was distantly related to Jesus through the priestly connection, this explains why he hung around at the crucifixion and was ready (possibly expecting) Jesus to ask him to look after Mary (who was a lot younger than her cousin Elisabeth).
John also rested on Jesus bosom at the last supper and is the only one of the disciples to have heard what God said when the dove descended on Him at His baptism. Is this because John was (like Caiaphas) destined to have a visionary and prophetic gift after Pentecost? Well, John was not the only one to prophesy, but, of the disciples, it is his record which remains because the Lord told him to write it down for us.
When John chooses 'last day', I believe it is significant and means something different from 'last days'. |
| 2005/8/13 16:29 | |
| Re: | | Ccchhhrrriiisss said:
There are other such verses pertaining to a single judgment -- where God divides the saved from the unsaved. I will leave those verses at the bottom of this post. Quote:
Here are the verses you quoted at the bottom of the post:
Matthew 25:31-46 - The Sheep and the Goats I Corinthians 15 - concerning the Resurrection of the Dead -- and how it will happen Revelation 20:11-15 - ALL will stand before the Great White Throne, and those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire 2 Peter 2:20-21 - Calvinists' ouch. Hebrews 9:27 - Judgment AFTER death. Romans 14:9-12 - ALL will stand on judgment to give an account to God. Romans 2:1-11 - Some at this DAY (vs. 5) of judgment will be punished, while others will be exalted. Acts 17:31 - Again, a DAY of judgment. I Thessalonians 1:5-12 - Judgment Day for BOTH sinners and saints after return of the Lord. Matthew 16:27-28 - Judgment AFTER the Lord returns. 2 Timothy 4:1-8 - God will judge the "quick and the dead" on that day. Matthew 13:24-30 - Parable of the Wheat and the Tares I Thessalonians 4:13-18 - Those who are "asleep" will be caught up in the air. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Stevers response:
Matthew 25:31-46 - The Sheep and the Goats This is a description oF what occurs after the Tribulation when Christ separates the sheep from the goats, the sheep on the left and the goats on the right. The sheep on his left are alive and well and are believers in the Messiah and are rewarded by going into the 1,000 year millennial reign with Jesus Christ, in their flesh and blood. It would seem by this verse that the goats are judged at this point in time, but other Bible verses tells us that at this point Christ comes as a thief, to kill and destroy. They are killed at this time and the judment occurs later, after the 1,000 year reign of Christ at the Great White Throne.I went into this earlier in one of my posts on this thread. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Revelation 20:11-15 - ALL will stand before the Great White Throne, and those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire.
Again, you have misquoted the Bible. It does not say ALL will stand before the Lord at this time. It specifically says:
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 2 Peter 2: 20. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Obviously this person, referred to above was not saved in the first place. How do we know that? We are saved through belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Knowledge has nothing to do with being saved. Even Satan knows (has knowledge) that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. Does Satan believe in his heart AND WORSHIP JESUS AS LORD? No! What does God's word tell us about this? Romans 10:9 tells us: " 9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Belief and confession are necessary. Even the fallen Angels know and understand that Jesus Christ is the LORD, but they do not/will not worship Him as such. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Hebrews 9:27 - Judgment AFTER death.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Exactly when does this judgement take place? It doesn't say IMMEDIATELY AFTER. It just says that it is the next event after death. We have to study the entire Bible to get clarification when we see a one liner like the above. The Bible explains itself. If we look in 1st & 2nd Corinthians we find that for the Christian, this judgment takes place at a specific time and place and this judgment for Christians is called THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST, AND IS A JUDGMENT OF REWARDS.
This makes sense to me because I understand that Christ took my sin upon Himself when He died upon the tree. He not only took my sin, but the sin of the entire world. The only condition is that we have to believe that He died for our sins and resurrected from the dead and that He is our LORD. Once we believe that with all of our heart, and confess it with our mouths, then we are saved and will not have to suffer judgment for our works, like all of those attending the Great White Throne Judgment, that we will discuss later. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Romans 14:9-12 - ALL will stand on judgment to give an account to God. Lets quote the whole thing so that we can make sense of it: 10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Bingo!!! The judgment referred to here is the judgment seat of Christ, the same exact judgment referred to in 1 & 2 Corinthians. This judgment is for Christians only, and we already know that everyone who goes through this judgment is saved at the end of the judgment. WOW- this means that it is not referring to the Great White Throne!!!!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Romans 2:1-11 - Some at this DAY (vs. 5) of judgment will be punished, while others will be exalted.
Lets see what Romans 2:1-11 has to say: 1. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4. Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5. BUT AFTER THY HARDNESS AND IMPENITENT HEART TREASUREST UP UNTO THYSELF WRATH AGAINST THE DAY OF WRATH AND REVELATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD; 6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11. For there is no respect of persons with God. Again, this does not refer specifically to ONE JUDGMENT. It refers to JUDGMENT. Then it explains that the GODLY will be rewarded with GLORY AND HONOUR AND IMMORTALITY, ETERNAL LIFE. But the UNGODLY will suffer TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH. It says nothing about the fact that they will both be judged at the same time, on the same day as you refer to above.
You specifically said: Some at this DAY (vs. 5) of judgment will be punished, while others will be exalted.
However, verse 5 says nothing about the day. What it says is: "5. BUT AFTER THY HARDNESS AND IMPENITENT HEART TREASUREST UP UNTO THYSELF WRATH AGAINST THE DAY OF WRATH AND REVELATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD;" that refers to the LOST, not the saved!
ANOTHER MISQUOTE?? HOW COME?
I like the Living Bible that offers some clarification here about Judgment for all. Notice, this is not ONE JUDGMENT GIVEN AT ONE TIME, but gives us a picture of the JUDGMENT of all people, both believers and non believers.
8. But he will terribly punish those who fight against the truth of God and walk in evil ways--God's anger will be poured out upon them. 9. There will be sorrow and suffering for Jews and Gentiles alike who keep on sinning. 10. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who obey him, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. 11. For God treats everyone the same. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Acts 17:31 - Again, a DAY of judgment
This refers to the Great White Throne Judgment: 31. Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
How do we know that it is the Great White Throne? Because he judges the world in righteousness. Everyone at this judgment is being judged because he/she thinks that they themselves are righteous because of their own works that they have performed. They have no interest in Christ and His work on the Cross. Their total focus has always been on themselves and their own works. Finally, Righteousness personified will judge them all! Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I Thessalonians 1:5-12 - Judgment Day for BOTH sinners and saints after return of the Lord.
Again, you are WRONG.
This is what 1 Thessalonians 5:10 actually says (because it does not continue to verse 12): 5. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7. So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
What it concludes with is that all those who believe in Jesus Christ will be delivered from the WRATH TO COME (the Tribulation)! Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Matthew 16:27-28 - Judgment AFTER the Lord returns 27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Again, WRONG. What this is referring to is that if we take up the cross and follow Jesus, we'll be rewarded in the ages to come as well as presently. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 2 Timothy 4:1-8 - God will judge the "quick and the dead" on that day. 1. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
This is referred to above, at the separation of the sheep and the goats, at the second coming---- Matthew 25:31-46 - The Sheep and the Goats xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Matthew 13:24-30 - Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
This again is a reference to the separation of the sheep and the goats, at the end of the Tribulation, also found in Matthew 25:31-46
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 - Those who are "asleep" will be caught up in the air.
This is nothing more than a reference to the rapture where Christ comes to get his elect- this Book of the Bible is addressed to the Christian believers at Corinth. The dead (asleep) first, and the living second, as we come together to meet HIM in the air.
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
God bless,
Stever
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| 2005/8/14 1:17 | | ccchhhrrriiisss Member
Joined: 2003/11/23 Posts: 4779
| Re: Current views on Judgment... | | Hi Stever...!
Thanks for writing such a long reply. I appreciate that you took so much time and effort in your response.
Again, thank you for spending so much time adding interpretive commentary to most of the verses that you listed. It helped me to understand what [i]your opinion[/i] is concerning judgment. However, after reading your reply, I am still unconvinced that there are two seperate days of judgment. In fact, I seem to find quite a bit of evidence in the Scriptures that you listed to support a [i]single[/i] day of judgment for humanity.
But I suppose that we are both searching for truth in this matter. At one time, I was convinced that there were two judgment days (the "Great White Throne" and the "Judgment Seat of Christ"). Much of the reason that I accepted this concept was because it was taught by my pastor and youth pastor, not to mention that it was taught "a-matter-of-factly" by many popular modern christian teachers (especially on television). But after having studied the matter, I discovered that I couldn't find any verses to validate such a belief -- especially enough circumstantial scriptural evidence to take a [u]firm[/u] doctrinal stand on the issue.
There are some things that are perfectly clear in the Word of God. But there are other things that are not quite so clear. I suppose that is the beauty of Christian maturity -- the search for truth. Proverbs 25:2 states: "[i]It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter[/i]." I believe that God takes delight when we search for truth that may seem unclear in the Word. As "kings and priests," we are honored to search out such things (Revelation 1:6). And it is encouraging that we can disagree on a subject of doctrinal interpretation, but respect the fact that we both are honestly and humbly searching for the truth of all such matters.
Unfortunately, there are a few spiritually arrogant people that unwisely reject those who do not agree with their particular position or interpretation of Scripture or doctrine. Such believers fall prey to [i]pride[/i] -- and judge those who do not accept their particular view or "teaching." I have to admit that, as a young believer, I sometimes felt this way about certain doctrinal issues. I had an "[i]I'm right[/i]/[i]you're wrong[/i]" attitude. The Lord gently rebuked me because of my attitude, and I repented for giving into a "spiritual" pride. Interestingly, as I grew in maturity, I realized that some of the beliefs that I so firmly stood upon were either wrong or somewhat misguided.
Right now, I [i]lean[/i] toward the following beliefs about judgment:
1. All of humanity lives here on earth, confined with the created concept of time. 2. When a person dies, they are "asleep" until the Lord's return. 3. The dead now "awaken" at the Lord's return (the trumpet call of God) and are transformed. The earth, sea and grave give up their dead. Our "rest" after death may seem like it was only an [u]instant[/u] for all who have died -- but may have taken a much longer period of time as all of human history has now been fulfilled. Time is no more. 4. Everyone -- christian, non-christian, those who lived before you, and those who lived after you -- stand before a great, white throne. 5. Christ is seated on this throne to judge all nations. 6. The "books" of human history are opened, and the dead are judged by what is recorded in those books (good and bad). 7. Another book is opened. This is the Book of Life. It will be explained that those whose names are not found in this book will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Likewise, those whose names are found there will enter into eternal life. 8. There will be feedback from people here. Some will be [i]shocked[/i] that their names were [u]not[/u] written in the Book of Life. Some will make excuses for their behavior ("Lord, when did we see thee...?"). Others will make claims of their own righteousness ("Lord, did I not prophesy in your name...?"). And others will wonder when they did good works for the Lord ("Lord, when did we visit you in prison...?"). 9. The Lord will answer at least some of those ("I tell you the truth..."). Then, those whose names are not found in this book are cast into the Lake of Fire. Those whose names are found there enter into eternal life.
The verses pertaining to why I believe the preceding are found in my other posts, and my understanding of the Bible as a whole. It is quite possible that I might be wrong in this. But that is okay. I am searching. You may feel strongly that I am [i]wrong[/i] or maybe even [i]misguided[/i]. But I have and will continue to study this. Whether there is one judgment day or two -- the [i]important thing[/i] is that we have our names written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Thanks for offering your thoughts about this subject. As always, I study what others write in their posts and "test" it according to the Word of God. I will continually study this and all such subjects. With God's help, we will all grow to maturity!
:-) _________________ Christopher
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| 2005/8/14 2:31 | Profile |
| Re: | | Dear ccchhrrriisss:
We are commanded to study God's word, and to rightly divide the Word of Truth. 2nd Timothy tells us: 15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Chris----After your last post I can see that you are, or were at one time, a 7th Day Adventist. It would be helpful if you would reveal that type of information so that others, when they respond to your posts will have a better understanding of you and be better equipped to respond in love & compassion, and at the same time share with you the defense of Christian Doctrine that has been handed down since the Apostles.
I have noticed over the past several years that the television and radio shows sponsered by the Adventists are now in stealth mode. They never reveal that they are Seventh Day Adventists, but yet offer free literature, etc. for anyone writing in to an address that says nothing about 7th day and nothing about Adventism.
God bless,
Stever |
| 2005/8/14 11:01 | |
| Re: | | Stever .... Chris a SDA ??? Where are you getting that from ? I sure haven't seen it in any of his posts. :-o
I don't want to get too deep into this discussion, because the posts are too long for me to read or reply to such long ones ... but we're told that the Day of Judgment is "AT His Coming" and then Rev.20 there's another, called the 2nd death.
Anyhow, Peace to you all.
Annie |
| 2005/8/14 11:18 | |
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