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Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

philologos wrote:

"I have carefully chosen the examples above because not all lung-cancer is the result of mis-stewardship of the body. And not all Aids is the result of sexual misbehavior. Similarly, not all obesity is the result of gluttony."

You are totally missing the point. I very clearly stated that the very small percentage of cases that are not from over eating, gluttony and abuse of ones body should be clearly made an exception. The fact is that the vast majority of lung cancer cases are caused from smoking. Equally the vast majority of obesity cases are from gluttony. It would be a very rare and few and far between case that someone was obese and not a glutton. The same thing goes with lung cancer and smoking.

Again I will say it plain and clear so every one understands. I am not talking about the very rare exception cases of medical condition. I am talking about the vast majority of case which are result of gluttony!

Come on now philologos this post is total cop out. Get real and discuss the issue.









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Patrick Ersig

 2005/8/7 20:07Profile
ravin
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Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.

 Re:

Well lets get real what do you want us to do walk up to some one and say bless you what happened to you.......
I believe we know to little of what has happened to some one to just judge them as sinners.
some have had things done to them that they never ask for, it may have happened as a child by some preaditor. it may be health reasons.
whats your answer to ones hurts? I would much rather be by Jesus and him writting in the sand then reading what he is writting.
so whats the real answer? to stand and pray thank you God that I am not a sinner.
I pray God that you have mercy on me a sinner.
who is next people who to short or have less hair. you can't just judge by appearance.
I find that I have to get to know someone and the lord willing they will share the hurt with a Brother and not an accuser.
I just feel I know where Paul of old was coming from when he said I wish I to had a crown and was sitting on a throne. Lord God have mercy on us.
what ever happened to bearing one anothers burden and so fulfil the law of Christ.
no one is washing the others feet they are judging their foot wear.

 2005/8/7 21:06Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Christisking...!

I guess that we can all agree that gluttony is a sin, as are other sins against an individual's own temple, such as smoking, non-medicinal drugs, lack of exercise, tattoos, etc... However, if we want to get really picky, we can also pinpoint other [i]damages[/i] inflicted upon our temples -- like too much caffeine (drugs), candy (rots our teeth), junk food (artery cloggers), too much time in the sun (harms the eyes and skin), too much time in front of the computer (harms the vision), lack of sleep (damaging to our mental aptitude), lack of washing the face (leads to pimples and acne), etc...

Again, in this particular topic, the distinction needs to be made between the cause and the effect. The cause (gluttony) often leads to the effect (obesity). Gluttony is a sin. And like other sins, a person should rely on God to help them overcome that sin. But to pinpoint the effect (obesity) and say that such people should not be allowed to worship (or passing judgment by saying that they are not really christians) can be quite ungracious.

Christisking wrote:

Quote:
"Then why are pastors allowing obese people to dance and worship dance week after week along with the rest of their congregation and pretend they are Christian while they live a continual lifestyle of sin?"

Perhaps those who are rejoicing are actually gluttons. But perhaps they have also repented of their gluttony. Perhaps they have asked for God's help to overcome such behavior. Remember, David was still allowed to worship even [i]after[/i] his sins were exposed.

How do we know if those worshippers are truly unrepentent sinners?
We don't.
And God doesn't really have to tell us. That is His responsibility.
If you feel the need to say something, pray and fast about the matter. Then, if you still feel the unction from the Lord, speak with your pastor about it. And, if after all of that you still feel an unction from the Lord to say something, go to that person and lovingly show them the truth about such perceived sin.

But as long as the Pastor preaches the truth (yes, including the fact that gluttony is a sin that needs to be overcome, and that we should take care of our bodies), then we should allow the Holy Spirit to have his work. To abrasively and publicly preach it to specific individuals will probably (and maybe rightfully) be perceived as self-righteousness. There are so many sins that can be dealt with (including some that we might not be aware of in our own lives). But it is the job of the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us into all truth.

I will pray for your congregation -- that they will take care of their "temples" with Biblical care.

:-)


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Christopher

 2005/8/7 21:13Profile
Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

I'm not saying we should completely vilify any one over a certain weight limit. I’m not calling for an all out holy war on overweight people. I not saying that pastors need to lambaste ever obese person in the congregation in a mean and cutting, hurtful way. That is the last think I would want to see happen. But I am try to make the case that gluttony is a rampant sin in the churches today and almost never even mentioned if addressed at all! Shouldn't these issues be addressed and dealt with within the church? Shouldn't we try to help our brothers and sisters to live Holy and Righteous lives? If a sin is running rampant within our churches and nation. (Obesity is consider a national "American" heath epidemic) shouldn't such sin be addressed from every pulpit, even at the risk of possibly offending a few? I just think that any sin that is running rampant through our churches needs to be addressed. That’s all, and I am truly sorry if anyone disagrees.


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Patrick Ersig

 2005/8/7 22:12Profile
mary0418
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Joined: 2005/8/4
Posts: 33


 Re:

I am so glad that someone is finally speaking about that proverbial "pink elephant"!!!
I personally have fought with my weight and still do everyday! I like to eat yummy stuff! It is a hard thing to do - to watch what you eat in this "fast food "society. How easy is it to grab a $5 hot and ready?? or a value meal on the way home from work?
But is being a Christian really easy? Aren't we supposed to be separated from the world? Not look like the rest of everybody?

We are commanded to crucify our fleshly desires- and that includes over induldging in food.
As Christians, we are to lead disciplined lives and are to take care of the bodies that God gave us. I have to work out almost every day so I won't get fat.
I mean, I wear a size 14 pants- I'm not all skin and bones. We just have to do what we have to do as Christians. It is our duty- right?
Let us just take a look at our Example- the Lord Jesus- was He obese? we need to keep in mind our Glorious Example and do what He does.
We should probably try to not be so incredibly carnal about such matters. Let's just be the saints of God that we are and press on to maturity. Remember Matthew 5:48 "But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."
Thank you Christisking for having the courage to bring up such things for discussion.

mary0418


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Mary Beth Ersig

 2005/8/7 22:38Profile
moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: obesity

I just wanted to make myself clear from my last post: I agree with many on here that obesity itself is NOT a sin. But gluttony is a sin. Gluttony not only leads to obesity and poor health (not taking care of our temples) but also causes slothfulness. When we overeat, it causes us to get tired and there for many times, lazy. There is a reason why gluttony is called out in the Bible.

I don't think obesity should be preached against, but I do think that there should be preaching on self-discipline and self-control- in all areas of our lives, so that it gives glory to God. Most people know it when they are not obeying the Lord about their eating. Many people are in bondage to food. Again, it is an idol to many people.

Do you know people can be thin and still be gluttons? It's is the heart motive behind it. Also there are gluttons for other things than just food. Remember Paul's words about how we should not be mastered by anything?

If anyone has problems with overeating, there is a wonderful book by Elyse Fitzpatrick (a nouthetic biblical counselor) called "'Love to Eat- Hate to Eat'- Breaking the Bondage of Destructive Eating Habits"

Funny thing about this is that before i totally surrendered to the Lord three years ago, i was thinner and at about 10% bodyfat- because i was not only obssessed with food intake/reduction, but I was obsessed with "looks". Now I am "fluffier" and my weight is up about 10 lbs (maybe more :) but I know I am being obedient to God by not obsessing about my weight, but also asking Him to help me with eating in moderation. I don't think people would recognize me as a personal trainer anymore- and that has been a death to 'self' all in itself :) Now I'll just settle for being a 'spiritual fitness trainer' :)

Pressing on with you all, Chanin


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Chanin

 2005/8/7 23:05Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Chanin
I bet you're not as 'fluffy' as I am. :-D

On this theme I came across something while reading about conscience for another thread. It comes from O Hallesby's book "Conscience" where he is speaking about the 'new' viewpoint towards sin that Jesus brought in. He writes:He preached the new and revolutionary truth that sin does not consist fundamentally in the deeds we do, nor in the words we speak, but in the attitude of heart from which these proceed. He say, for instance, "For from inside, out of a man's heart, come evil thoughts, acts of fornication, of theft, murder, adultery, ruthless greed, and malice; fraud, indecency, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly" (Mark 7:21,22 NEB)

Here Jesus says that what makes a deed good or bad, sinful or not sinful, is not the doing of it, not its consequence, nor its result, but the motive, the impelling purpose which gives rise to it. Sin is therefore primarily and basically a condition of our heart, an expression of our will. That is pretty much what I have been trying to say in my contributions to this thread.

yours, with a definite intention towards less fluffiness...


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Ron Bailey

 2005/8/8 6:43Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
"Here Jesus says that what makes a deed good or bad, sinful or not sinful, is not the doing of it, not its consequence, nor its result, but the motive, the impelling purpose which gives rise to it. Sin is therefore primarily and basically a condition of our heart, an expression of our will."

That is a total cop out. You can not justify sin because of motive or heart. When start trying to justify sin behind the guise of motive and heart condition we are sliding down a grease slide towards pits of hell. We are to live Holy and Righteous lives through the power of the grace of God as a living sacrifice to a Holy and Righteous God. This is were that "God's going to Judge my heart" type of garbage comes from.



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Patrick Ersig

 2005/8/8 12:13Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
"I agree with many on here that obesity itself is NOT a sin."

The only way obesity is not a sin is on the very rare occasion when it is a medical condition. Other wise I think very few would disagree that obesity is a sin.

Some here present the position that obesity is only a sin if it is the result of gluttony, and of course this is almost always the cause of obesity. I like Chanin gained weight after becoming a Christian because I was not vain and not overly concerned with my outward appearance anymore. But I would never allow myself to become obese because it would be a sin against the temple of the Holy Spirit. I am sure the Holy Spirit is not too happy with people who continually sin against His temple no matter how good a Christian they pretend to be. I would have serious doubt that anyone who sins against the temple of the Holy Spirit day after day and night after night is even a Christian at all no matter what else they say or do.

Now I will use myself as an example, I have a large frame low metabolism body type. (at 17 I was in the best shape of my life, a well conditioned athlete with 10% body fat and 225lbs) If at age 35 I was to eat reasonable portions of reasonably healthy food I would become obese without being a glutton. I have to work hard and make a conscious effort not to become obese. If I were to allow myself to become obese even though I was not being a glutton it would without a doubt be a sin against the temple of the Holy Spirit. If this is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, God gave me, it is my responsibility to take care of it, even if that means I need to put in more effort then others. Hopefully everyone can see how that works by using myself as an example. I could not be a glutton, allow myself to become obese and be living a continual lifestyle of sin.

The only way that one could be obese and not be sinning is the very rare and almost nonexistent case of medical condition. If you don’t have a medical condition and are obese you are living a life of sin, no different then a alcoholic or homosexual. If you don’t have a medical condition and are obese you are living a life of sin, you need to repent and change your behavior or you will show up on judgment day having rejected the grace of God as power to break the bonds of sin. This is not the position you want to be on the day of judgment my friend.

Heb:10:26-27 -
“Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that will cover these sins. There will be nothing to look forward to but the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies”

“Today, 64.5 percent of adult Americans (about 127 million) are categorized as being obese. Each year, obesity causes at least 300,000 excess deaths in the U.S., and healthcare costs of American adults with obesity amount to approximately $100 billion. Obesity is the second leading cause of unnecessary deaths.” American Obesity Association

These statistics bring to mind the following verses -

“Their future is eternal destruction. Their god is their appetite, they brag about shameful things, and all they think about is this life here on earth.” Philippians 3:19

“Listen to me, you "fat cows" of Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and who are always asking your husbands for another drink!” Amos 4:1

"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.” Ezekiel 16:49

Boy how these verse so accurately describe the condition of America today, both inside and outside the church!!!


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Patrick Ersig

 2005/8/8 12:15Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
That is a total cop out. You can not justify sin because of motive or heart. When start trying to justify sin behind the guise of motive and heart condition we are sliding down a grease slide towards pits of hell.


I think you must have misunderstood what Hallesby is saying here. He is certainly not trying to reduce man's culpability but rather to increase it. I can't think how you got the notion that 'motive justifies sin' from this quotation.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/8 13:39Profile





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