SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What happens at death?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 Next Page )
PosterThread
almondBranch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/6
Posts: 91
Tralee, Ireland

 Re:

Quote:

jake wrote:
ALmond Branch and Nasher apparently are telling us that these children must have been posessed by demons in order to be able to do this. SO, I guess you have come up with a fool proof way of avoiding a true examination of the issue, just explain anything that doesn't fit into your world view by laying it on "demons." End of arguement!



Well, I didn't actualy atribute their testimony to demons at all. I merely reponded to a statement you had made explaining your view of the stories of demons in the NT. If you look back at the posts my reponse to the testimony of the children supporting reincarnation was to show why i believe it is unscriptural, you had said that reincarnation does not contradict the bibles teachings in any way, I simply wished to point out that it did. If yo said you believed in it regardless of what the scriptures say, i would have left it at that, but you semed at first to give credence to the bible as an authority.

I have no idea what happened to the children, there are many stories all over the world of many differnt things with very sensible people giving evidence for them, near death experiences, apparitions, so on and so forth. many of these contradict each other. Eventualy if you have a firm belief in anything you will have to reject somones testimony along the way.

You have dismissed the notion of demons in doing so you have dismissed the testimony of many living people who claimed to have encountered them, as well as the testimoney recorded in scripture, you are entitled to do that.

I believe the bible to be inspired by God.

Stuart.


_________________
Stuart

 2003/11/11 11:35Profile









 Re: Continuing Dialogue...


Agent001

Evolution and reincarnation go hand in hand. New human souls evolve.

YOu might say that Creation and evolution are at odds. But I would say they are two sides of the same coin. Night and day are divided: Revolving planetary systems are formed. The waters were separated into those above and below the firmament: comets bring water to earth. The waters were gathered into one place -- Pangea. Early man is given every seed bearing plant for food: Australeopithicus afarensis (protoman) is an herbivore. Aa becomes scavenger and then hunter: Adam and Eve eat forbidden fruit. Hunting requires running and narrower hips: Eve (women) get increased pain in child birth.

I can go on at great length to explain this but cant in this space.

My whole point is that the Scriptures need to be carefully examined and compared with what the Creation and the Holy Spirit tell us. One reason I have faith is because it is obvious to me that the Holy Spirit is present. I need to pay attention to where it leads me.

For instance, Scripture clearly is against homosexuality. But nature tells us that some people are biologically orientated this way. And I have Christian Friends that are gay. The Spirit tells me that this should not be a concern. That I should treat gay people no differently than anyone else and that God will sort it all out. Fundamentalist Christians rail against and condemn homosexuality. How does this bring them closer to God? Might as well kill em all and let God sort it out?

 2003/11/11 11:35
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re: Getting Messy...

Jake:

Thanks for replying. I think bringing the scriptural interpretations concerning homosexual practices and creation into this discussion will only make things messier given our divergent views on the authority of the Bible. It probably will not help clarify our present discussion.

Apart from scriptural interpretation, I believe the questions I have raised earlier still need to be answered, especially from someone who claims that [i]"beliefs do need to be held up to the scrutiny of reason"[/i] (direct quote from a previous post from you):

1) How does reincarnation account for all the souls of an ever-increasing population of the world? Is this worldview logically consistent and coherent?

2) If a person can have multiple identities (since his soul came from preceding lives), does this not obliterate human personhood? This problem is especially acute if you also believe in resurrection (do you?), when you consider the question: who am I really upon resurrection? Does it include all my previous reincarnations? Are they all the same person or are they each unique? How can God judge the soul in this identity confusion?

3) Did you come to this conviction (re: reincarnation) because you find the arguments of Shroder rationally convincing (i.e. based on reason)? Or were you convinced that what you have is [i]indeed[/i] the "continuing revelation" of the Holy Spirit? How do you substantiate this claim?

I realise that my present post is essentially the same as my previous one. Perhaps I did not communicate too well. I suppose what I'm getting at is this: to find out how consistent and coherent your worldview is by asking questions that arise from its implications.


_________________
Sam

 2003/11/11 13:16Profile









 Re: agent001 questions

Agent 001

I will try to answer your questions. But I also have some for you.

1) Reincarnation accounts for all the ever increasing souls because it incorporates all life forms. Lower animals (even all life) evolve up to "higher" life forms. This accounts for an increasing number of people.

2)The essence of who you are thru multiple lives remains the same. Your gender, cultural identity, intellect etc. will certainly change (and hopefully grow) with each stage, but the soul has continuity.

3)Both a rational acceptance of what Shroder wrote and a revelation (which I cannot relate) are the basis of my belief in reincarnation.

My questions for you:

Given that Jesus denigrated the priests and scribes who prayed in front of others to be seen and his admonition to 'go to your room, close the door and not let anyone but God hear your prayers', by what authority do you practice public prayer? (and you cannot cite the Lords Prayer here, because it was a response to a question 'how should we pray?' and was an instrution, and not a prayer itself.)

Given Jesus instructions on swearing oaths, by what authority or rationale to the vast majority of Christians swear oaths?

What justification is there for a Christian to fight in a war given Jesus testimony that those who lose their lives for His sake will receive their just rewards?

Lastly, didn't Jesus tell the apostles that Isaiah had come in the form of John the Baptist? (I can't cite the verse right now, need to look it up.)

Your responses would be appreciated.

 2003/11/11 15:15
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 A Brief History of Reincarnation



A Brief History of Reincarnation

The present popular Western concepts of reincarnation are actually refinements of the ancient theory of transmigration. This theory states that all human “souls” are involved in a cyclic series of rebirths in which the soul is eventually purged of evil by suffering, administered through the Law of Karma. In the Indian Vedas, the word “Karma” originally meant “a sacrifice” or “a ritual act.” In the Upanishads it evolved into the concept that any act in this life will have an effect on one’s next life. Finally, in the Bhagavad Gita, Karma is viewed as a punishment in this life for evils done in the past life, with a prospect of purification for future lives.

According to the Law of Karma, one’s soul can be reborn into an insect, animal, or human body. For example, a gluttonous man could be reborn into a pig’s body as punishment.
The Law of Karma is the immutable law that a person pays for evil he does in this life by suffering for it in the next life. If he is reborn as a worm or as a blind girl, this is his Karma. No one can pay his Karmic depth for him. All the suffering he experiences in this life is his own fault. The Law of Karma will always catch up with him. There is no escape.

A person’s soul, according to this doctrine, is eternal and is part of the “world soul” or “ultimate being” (sometimes called “God”). A person emanates out of this “cosmic energy” and passes through multiple cycles of births until he is finally absorbed back into unconscious reality. One is “fallen” now because he is under the illusion of self-consciousness (I-am) and of subject-object relationships to the world (I-Thou and I-it). Through cyclic rebirths he will return to an impersonal nonconscious fusion with “ultimate reality.” In other words, the person was nothing, is now in trouble because he thinks he is something, but will return to being nothing through Karmic, cyclic rebirth.

The theory of transmigration was disseminated into the Western world in the form of Orphic mysticism. Many Western pre-Socratic, and later Greek philosophers, held to Karmic transmigration in one form or the other. It became a firm Western as well as Eastern philosophic tenet.
With Eastern and Western philosophers embracing the theory of Karmic transmigration, it is remarkable that Judaism held to its revealed dogmas. Its doctrines of God, creation, sin, man, death, and salvation were contrary to the popular Eastern and Western philosophies. It is no wonder, therefore, that Judaism expended its main energy on survival and thus did not significantly influence the philosophic world.

In the world in which Christianity arose, most of the first-century Greek mystery religions, such as Gnosticism, held to various theories of Karmic transmigration. Christianity eventually displaced Karmic transmigration with its doctrine of Christ’s substitutionary atonement. He suffered and died for our sins.
In the late 1800s, secularism, liberalism, and humanism began to displace Christianity through a rationalistic denial of supernaturalism. As Christianity was stripped of the miraculous and the supernatural, a spiritual vacuum was created in the hearts of many people. A revival of the occult religions, such as spiritism, thus ensued. Because secularization had stripped Christianity of its supernatural character, people began to return to the old forms of paganism.

Occult practices and theories grew because they satisfied the desire for the miraculous and the supernatural. Thus, witchcraft, astrology and spiritism began to gain acceptance. The early part of the 20th century also witnessed a growth of occult groups which espoused reincarnation.
At present, many secularized “Christians” are gradually moving into the world of the occult. Since liberalism and neo-orthodoxy have fostered the secularization of Christianity in the mainline Protestant denominations, more nominal Christians will be drawn into the occult. Liberal theology creates the vacuum which the occult fills.

The theory of Karmic transmigration has been modified to suit the Western Christian mentality. Since a “Christian’ would not accept rebirth into a bug or animal, the concept was redefined so that rebirth always took place in a human body. This westernized form of transmigration was first expounded by occult groups such as Theosophy, and later by many of the Indian Hindu gurus who came to the United States. It was eventually adopted by such psychics as Jeane Dixon and Edgar Cayce.
Cayce, sometimes called “the sleeping prophet” because “he gave his medical readings and prophecies while in a sleep-like trance, has done much to popularize this Western view of reincarnation. Cayce claimed to be a “Christian” who believed in reincarnation; but occult practices blended hand-in-glove with his reincarnation beliefs. He also accepted the basic metaphysical beliefs which formed the philosophic basis of reincarnation. Thus he was “Christian” in name but Hindu in belief.
The Western version of transmigration is, therefore, a “hybrid” of distinctly opposite religious philosophies, borrowing just enough of Christian doctrine to make it palatable to western minds. Because transmigrational thought infiltrated our society so gradually, few have noted what an inconsistent mixture it really is.

From:
Reincarnation and Christianity
Robert A. Morey

More books on the two incompatible world views:
Reincarnation vs. Resurrection by John Snyder
Reincarnation, A Christian appraisal by Mark Albrecht


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2003/11/11 16:04Profile









 Re: A Brief History of Reincarnation


Well, I can tell you that this history of belief in reincarnation is not something i am familiar with. I hold no stock in the occult. Moreover, I believe that salvation comes from Christ. But I do think that the person with the murderous disposition who acts on it will have to carry this weight into their next life and deal with it. And every time people ignore what is Good and support what is Evil there are consequences they have to live with. (The suicide bomber for instance.) Moreover, I don't see how my belief in reincarnation is incompatible with Christianity.

 2003/11/11 17:30
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Moreover, I don't see how my belief in reincarnation is incompatible with Christianity.



Hi Jake
I don't want to disturb the flow but just a comment on the above. To be a Christian is to be personally submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. In that sense it is not primarily a belief system or a moral code; it is a relationship.

However, Christ said that our relationship with Him was conditional: "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you". His commands which are communicated to us by His Spirit can only be consistent with what the Spirit has already inspired i.e. the Scriptures. This was the position of George Fox, Robert Barclay etc.,

In fact Christ's prayer in John 17 only encompassed two kinds of people "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word". He prayed for His immediate disciples and those who would come to faith through their testimony. He promised that the Spirit would come to bring to their remembrance things that they had heard from Christ, and to lead them into truth.

The NT Scriptures are the fulfillment of this promise and Christians are those who have believed through the Spirit inspired testimony of those original disciples. This does not cancel the need for the Spirit's enlightening, but the Spirit cannot inspire contradictory 'truth'. This again was Barclay's position.

One such scripture is the simple Spirit-inspired statement of Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement". This statement is incompatible with reincarnation and hence you will need to choose between your own personal intuition or to Christ's word in the Spirit-inspired scriptures.

The choice is yours but if you choose your own enlightenment in opposition to that of the Scripture you ought not to name yourself a 'Christian'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2003/11/11 18:21Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Jake wrote;

Quote:
The difference in our positions on interpreting the Bible is that you do not allow for the continuing revelations of the Holy Spirit.



A faith that rests less and less on the Bible and more on church pronouncements, revelation, and human reason, is a faith that is built on sandy soil. Revelation and human reason have their place but are not to be on equal footing with the Word.

Jake wrote;
Quote:
do not strike at the life in thee, but at the strict interpretation and exclusive reliance on Scripture evident in so many of the posts on this website.



Wow, in my mind that is one of the best testimonies concerning the members of this site that could be given! I'm feeling more at home. :-D

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2003/11/11 18:44Profile









 Re:

Mt.17:12-13
"But I say unto you, That Elias is come already.... then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

By the way, can any of you answer the questions I posed below to Agent001?

 2003/11/12 9:50
almondBranch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/6
Posts: 91
Tralee, Ireland

 Re:

Quote:
Given that Jesus denigrated the priests and scribes who prayed in front of others to be seen and his admonition to 'go to your room, close the door and not let anyone but God hear your prayers', by what authority do you practice public prayer? (and you cannot cite the Lords Prayer here, because it was a response to a question 'how should we pray?' and was an instrution, and not a prayer itself.)



Again, scripture is our authority. Jesus said don't pray to be seen by men, so christians should not pray in order to be seen and praised. He said go to your room, so I go to my room and pray in secret. The Disciples prayed together (Acts 1:14, Acts 4) (I don't believe a group of believers seeking the Lord together constitutes public prayer) so I pray with other disciples. People may have differnt views than me, but if claiming to be christian, we will begin our discussion on the premise that the scriptures are our authority, Jesus said they cannot be broken. No one is forced to believe his words but one who whishes to be named his disciple surely will believe them.

Quote:
Given Jesus instructions on swearing oaths, by what authority or rationale to the vast majority of Christians swear oaths?



I don't, and if I met a christian that did I would remind them of our Lord's words. Again, if he is a christian he will heed them.


Quote:
What justification is there for a Christian to fight in a war given Jesus testimony that those who lose their lives for His sake will receive their just rewards?



That is a matter which many christians debate. I would tend to agree with you on that one.

Quote:
Lastly, didn't Jesus tell the apostles that Isaiah had come in the form of John the Baptist? (I can't cite the verse right now, need to look it up.)



John 1:21 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in [u]the spirit and power[/u] of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Mt 17:11-13 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Comparing scripture with scripture, John was not Elijah, John was elijah but in the middle we have "he came in the spirit and power of elijah".

I believe the middle statment harmonises the other two comletly.

Stuart.



_________________
Stuart

 2003/11/12 10:49Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy