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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : THE SABBATH COMMANDMENT - My Personal Testimony

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KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Where is the standard?



The Standard is Christ and His Law is the New Covenant, not the Old.


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Jimmy H

 2005/7/22 21:12Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Just one more thing. Anyone here celebrate Christmas and Easter?



When I was at the Jewish Roots Institute I endured much chiding over the whole Christmas and Easter thing. They were dead set bent on getting back to early 1st century Judaism (as well as they could reconstruct it) and build a Christian framework into it. My answer to the question would be that I recognize those days, but I would not see it a sin 'not' to honor them.

Again, what does the scripture say:

Romans 14:5-6 “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth everyday, alike. [u]Let everyman be fully persuaded in his own mind[/u]. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he dot not regard it.”

Colossians 2:16 “Let no man therefore judge you to meat, or in drink, or in respect of an [u]holy day[/u], or of the new moon, or of the [u]sabbath days[/u]: [b]Which are a shadow of things to come[/b]; but the body is of Christ.”

The distinction between us and other people must extend beyond mere outward observances of days and foods. These things are dead religion in of themselves. We are to be walking tabernacles filled with the Holy Spirit. That is why we are holy; we are holy because of the indwelling presence of God. Please read Galatians and see how important this is. On the one hand I sense a real desire to honor God in keeping Sabbath; on the other hand when we try to keep laws in the sense that we are gaining favor with God it is no different than circumcision or tithe. It would make us a debtor to the whole law.

We are obligated to walk in the Spirit. That is our requirement. We cannot expect to come under the Mosiac law at all.

Moreover, Christ is our Sabbath. He is our 'rest' that we enter into at salvation. One of the points of Christ coming was that we could 'rest' from our works as God did from His. We have entered into a 'rest' from works. We have in Christ a rest that mere 'ceasation' on Saturday could never rival. The most Sabbath could be was a 'shadow' of things to come. And if you worry that Sabbath breaking was punishable by death- so too was failure to circumcize. Yet Paul says that if we be circumcized (for the purpose of keeping law) Christ shall profit us [u]nothing[/u].

God Bless,

-Robert




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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/7/22 21:29Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
You can't have it both ways, beloved. If you are not going to live "loose", then what criteria will you judge living conservative? Where is the standard? Do you attempt to drive with a blind fold on?


Lets change the metaphor into one of walking. Would you prefer to have a detailed map or a personal guide?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/23 4:23Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Sacrifice and offering did not begin with the Sinaitic Law. It was made obligatory by the Sinaitic Law but there is clear evidence of its existence long before this. The examples of Cain, Noah, Abraham show quite plainly that their way of worship predated that of the Sinai Church.

If you want some almost unnoticed evidence I would draw you to Ex. 19:22 And let the priests also, which come near to the LORD, sanctify themselves, lest the LORD break forth upon them.
Ex. 19:24 And the LORD said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them. The significant fact here is that the Levitical priesthood was not established until Leviticus 8 which is over a year later than this reference. There was plainly some kind of priesthood operating before that of Aaron and his sons; before Sinai.
Ex. 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Ex. 24:5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. This passage again is a full year earlier than Leviticus where the offereings of 'the burnt offering' and 'the peace offering' are instituted within an Aaronic/Levitical framework. It is plain that the people of Israel were already familiar with some kinds of 'burnt offering' and 'peace offering'. Again this is 'before Sinai'.

Unless I am much mistaken, if you examine the words used for 'offerings' in Genesis it will always be in the terms of 'the burnt offering'. It seems to me that the main emphasis of the 'whole burnt offering' (haulocaust) was the image of a life wholly given up to God with nothing left behind. The 'peace offering' as we find it in Leviticus is almost an equivalent of 'holy communion'. Before Sinai these offerings were not obligatory to the people of Israel or to anyone else. They were used by people earlier but not imposed upon them. Similarly the tithe was given by Abraham and promised by Jacob but no obligation is evident; these are voluntary offerings. The word for 'sin offering' only becomes part of the language of the Bible when Sinai has been enacted and the Covenant brought into being. Only after God had given the Law could transgression be 'reckoned'; before that there was no 'sin reckoned' and no insistence upon 'sin offering'.

Burnt offering, peace offerings, tithes and sabbaths were made obligatory upon the Covenant people of Israel at Sinai. To fail to keep these commands was sin, but none of these are obligatory under the New Covenant. The Sinai covenant with its obligations and mitigating sacrifices was always intended to be a temporary expedient; Gal. 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. We should carefully note the words 'added' and 'until'; these words put the Covenant at Sinai into a clear context. The Seed has come, the 'first' has been taken away that He might establish the 'second'.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/23 4:51Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Lets change the metaphor into one of walking. Would you prefer to have a detailed map or a personal guide?



This is a good metaphor I think. It reminded me of this verse...

"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

I don't think it too far a stretch to say that the only way to fulfill the law is to be unhitched from it so that we can abide in Christ. After thinking about Ron's "walking" metaphor, another one involving flying occurred to me.

The first time I was asked to fly out of the country was for a trip to Sri Lanka.. I remember looking it up on the map and seeing how far it was from Ohio...literally on the other side of the world! For several weeks I was anxious because I could never imagine traveling so far. It wasn't untill the day of my flight that I finally appreciated an obvious truth: it wasn't my job to travel thousands of miles to Sri lanka...my job was to get to the airplane and then enter in. Even if someone is afraid of flying, as long as they abide in the plane they will fulfill the flight plan and wind up in Colombo! (Your personal luggage however is another story...)

Of course this is not to slight anyones convictions. I just struggle to keep the language of following the law, (which is a good thing), separate from the language of fulfilling the law.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/7/23 5:53Profile
wildbranch
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re:

Quote: Just one more thing. Anyone here celebrate Christmas and Easter?

I don't Lahry (for the past 5 or 6 years). When one comes to understand the roots of these things and how they came to be incorporated into the church, one cannot in good conscience embrace them.

The feasts of the LORD are so meaningful and wonderful, why have we abandoned them (called them 'weak and beggarly' elements), in favor of the feasts of man (pagan in root, and 'weak and beggarly' in manifestation)?

Sunday Sabbath, no Sabbath, Christmas, Easter etc. have all replaced the days of the LORD. Follow the trail and one can see that they are all roots of another tree, not the 'holy stump' that we are supposed to be grafted in to.

Peace

 2005/7/23 8:53Profile
wildbranch
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re:

Quote:

Lets change the metaphor into one of walking. Would you prefer to have a detailed map or a personal guide?


A detailed map.

"Personal guides" come in all flavors, shapes and sizes. They have led many astray.




Peace

 2005/7/23 8:58Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Quote:
A detailed map.

"Personal guides" come in all flavors, shapes and sizes. They have led many astray.



I believe the personal guide that philo is referring to here is God. ;-)


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/7/23 9:43Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re:

Quote:
I believe the personal guide that philo is referring to here is God.



With all respect Hulsey, I realise that ;-)

It's just that so many claim to be following God, but there are so many different directions 'He' seems to be leading us all in. Where is the straight and narrow path? I have seen so many of the "God spoke to me" types, yet none agree, sadly nothing seems to add up to a people manifesting the kingdom of God in unison.

The original blue-print seems the only sure way to go.

Peace

 2005/7/23 10:08Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

The original blue-print seems the only sure way to go.



Thank God for the New Covenant! :)


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Jimmy H

 2005/7/23 10:57Profile





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