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dspks
Member



Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 167
Dakotas

 Re:

According to Ephesians 2:20 True Believers...”are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; “

The apostles and prophets fulfilled their purpose years ago (as Jesus did)... they (the apostles & prophets) are the “foundation” of the true Church... It would be silly to put a foundation on top of a foundation. Apostles are not needed today... they fulfilled their purpose by laying a foundation for the “living stones” to be layed upon.

 2019/12/2 14:17Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1999
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
.The apostles and prophets fulfilled their purpose years ago (as Jesus did)... they (the apostles & prophets) are the “foundation” of the true Church... It would be silly to put a foundation on top of a foundation. Apostles are not needed today... they fulfilled their purpose by laying a foundation for the “living stones” to be layed upon.



When Ephesians 2:20 speaks of the foundation of the apostles and prophets I don't believe that we can read into it that this means that the work of apostles and prophets in the church has ceased any more than the statement that Christ is the chief cornerstone of that foundation means that we no longer need Christ. If we read into it that apostles and prophets are no longer needed then, to be scripturally consistent, we would also have to read into it that Christ is no longer needed since He is listed as being part of that same foundation.

I believe that the foundation of the apostles and prophets refers to the church being foretold by the prophets and established by the apostles. According to Eph. 4, the apostles and prophets are just as active a part of the leadership structure of the body as are the pastors, evangelists, and teachers.

I would agree with Todd that the leadership structure of the church could have a lot to do with the denominational divisions we see today. If the church is to change, it is going to first require a change in the hearts of the leadership. We do still have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in leadership in the church. I don't think we will go back to a small group of apostles leading the church out of denominationalism. I believe we will have elders, which include the five leaders mentioned as well as men ordained as overseers that are not necessarily one of these five gifts to the body, who will be on their faces, seeking God. These men will be of one mind and one judgement because they will all be totally sold out and committed to one God. The true church will be in unity.

However, I don't ever perceive of a time when the nominal church (those who perhaps carry a name but do so without the One whose name they carry) will be without faction and division. I don't think the denominations will ever cease to be. I just think the true church will emerge from the carnality of the nominal church and walk in power and unity.


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Travis

 2019/12/2 21:20Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

What can an apostle or prophet add to The Words of this Book; the Body of Christ, who's foundation is Christ Himself who gave Paul the fullness of His Grace of the New Covenant and the finished work of Jesus Christ and His body the Church. Are we not to conduct the business of the Body of Christ His Church according to His instructions and the Power of the Holy Spirit in who directs us and guides us into all truth.

Revelation 22:16-21 (KJV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall (((add unto these))) things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and (((from the things which are written in this book.))) He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

This takes care of the Prophets and there were only 12 Apostles. I certainly don't want anything added or taken away from the things that are written in this Book.

I have only made it into His Kingdom by His Grace and the Blood of Christ. Thank you Father; Amen and Amen.

IN Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2019/12/3 6:41Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1999
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Phillip:

I would answer your question quite clearly, and I am sure you would agree wholeheartedly. There is absolutely nothing that an apostle or prophet can add to this book (the written word of God). Nor can pastors, evangelists, teachers, elders, or believers.

However there is a lot that apostles and prophets can add to the body of Christ. This is why Paul, in Ephesians 4, said that God placed these five ministry gifts within the body of Christ. They add to the body by being the ones specifically called out to minister to the growth and maturity of the body.

I remember Paul's calling and his ordination into apostleship. "Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul." In the church at Antioch there were prophets along with teachers. These men were the ones who laid hands on Paul and ordained him to the work of apostleship.

I actually find a total of 16 apostles in the New Testament that are specifically called apostles. I find the original twelve, obviously. It should be noted that Judas' apostleship with taken away and given to Matthias. The thirteenth is Paul. Then we have Barnabas (Acts 14:14) and Silvanus and Timotheus (1 Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6)

The original twelve were chosen to introduce the message of the gospel to Israel, and to establish the church among them, and they did. Paul was chosen to introduce the message of the gospel to the Gentiles, and to establish the church among them, and he did. Some of the twelve wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit what God intended to be written down as His holy and unalterable word. Examples would be Paul, Peter, Matthew, and John. Others did not do this. Examples would be Thomas, and James and John the sons of Zebedee. Some men were called to write scripture that were not, as far as we have recorded, Apostles at all. Mark and Luke are examples of these.

I know this may be a discussion for another thread, but it really seem inconsistent to me that we would pick three ministry gifts to the body out of Ephesians 4 and label them as continuing while at the same time saying that the other two have ceased to function, when Paul tells us that they are all five placed in the body by God for the maturing of the body.


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Travis

 2019/12/3 9:57Profile
dspks
Member



Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 167
Dakotas

 Re:

The Scriptures speak for themselves... the apostles completed their task as foundation layers.
Christ fulfilled His purpose as being the “Chief Cornerstone”.
It’s obvious that our Lord AS the “Chief Cornerstone” continues His task as
our Lord, Shepherd, etc.
No need for apostles TODAY to lay a foundation... that task is completed AND complete.
I would question the authority of anyone TODAY claiming to be an “apostle”.
Such a claim TODAY (apostleship) elevates that person to a position of authority (above written Scripture) ... where they will actually claim to know “truth” that no-one else has known. Dangerous... you will start believing in the “Passion Translation” if you adhere to that thinking!

 2019/12/3 10:21Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1091
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: God's dangersous idea

A quote from dspks:

"The apostles and prophets fulfilled their purpose years ago (as Jesus did)... they (the apostles & prophets) are the “foundation” of the true Church... It would be silly to put a foundation on top of a foundation. Apostles are not needed today... they fulfilled their purpose by laying a foundation for the “living stones” to be layed upon."

This statement alone serves to prove the need for denominations and it also proves the need for apostolic corrections.

dspks, Im just using your statement as an example, this thread is not about the office of apostles or any eschatology related to them.

My point, some men in the past Joseph Smith is one...who basically said "the churches are all corrupt, there no none that teaches rightly" so...I appoint myself an apostle...I got an angel to vindicate me and some tablets urim and thummin and a cave...now I just need some followers...poof Church of Later Day Saints.

It is upon that statement "the churches are all corrupt and someone's got to step in and fix it" that cults are born.

But the opposite end is equally false, namely "we don't need apostles today". Based on what? Based on a denominations eschatological position which they teach and forbid anyone calling themselves an apostle...true or not, they are automatically excluded.

My point is when denominations make the rules for "who is considered legitimate and who is not" when in fact their own legitimacy comes from the exact place non-denominational believers come from...God.

It's also convenient that various denominations exclude any prophetic or apostolic office...therefore there is no one to challenge the authority of the pastor/teacher or his interpretations.

The reason of course is an insistence that modern apostles and prophets are non-foundational and are guilty of adding or subtracting from the word of God. This two-fold argument is everywhere in evangelical Christianity...so the very thing Staff and others are saying is automatically relegated to the 'rebellion-file' because their authority is really at the heart of the issue, not whether or not the bible is going to be harmed.

dspks statement" It would be silly to put a foundation on top of a foundation. Apostles are not needed today... they fulfilled their purpose by laying a foundation for the “living stones” to be layed upon."
is as common as dirt in the field, but it contains it's own defeater...namely lack of any biblical warrant for believing it.

There is another option, the modern apostle and prophet do not add or subtract from the scriptures and are not laying another foundation, but as God designs are part of the building of God as living stones themselves.

God's dangerous idea is that men are free to follow the Spirit of God, where God designs the Church himself. When human design trespasses it does so by building new fences on real estate it doesn't own, then runs off anyone claiming God's calling and office.
The denominations structure, boundary, doctrine and leadership by the very nature of being a denomination necessitates it disallowing any authority but its own.

But here again...is it a denomination that is issuing statements like dspks gave? Is that the position of some 40000 denominations that there are no modern apostles or prophets or that denominations are in themselves a lesser form of Church existence? You might be surprised that every single denomination is multiplied by its number of locations in the world...even if there were only 1 charismatic denomination...its multiplied 200 times simply because of it's locale.

It's my opinion the big-boys on the block with the money and power behind their organizations that have any real influence on "who's going to be an apostle or prophet". They are the gate-keepers, they are the ones who make sure the rest of the teachers maintain party lines and teach party politics. Breaking ranks brings a swift end to denominational authority. It's that very authority...not granted by scripture or the spirit of God, but conveyed upon themselves by themselves that will remain hostile to any 'doctrine' that negates their authority.



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Marvin

 2019/12/3 10:22Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1037


 Re:

Thank you Travis,
For the research you have afforded us here.
———
I ask,... Are we so ingrained in denominational teachings, ?,....Can denominational teachings blind us to God’ Truth ? ...

When The ‘Spirit of Grace’ drawed us to God, Who IS The Word ! , ... how long did we stay hungry and searching for truth before we turned to man to teach us ?,..OR get alone with The Spirit of God, .. the same One that was drawing us to God,...did we do as Paul, and say, “What would Thou have for me to do Lord ?” He was seeing what The King would direct him to do. Seeking the King [dom] of God, and His righteousness ?,.... The One who will teach us by the anointing,...as Mary did at the feet of Jesus,.. that ‘no one’ can take His / Word ,.. His teachings from us ? ... The Rock,.. The sure foundation,.... that we through His Spirit, confirming it through The Word, build our lives upon,.. a house to house The Holy Spirit,... The One to fill and lead us by His Spirit.
—————-
Wouldn’t you believe that (seeking The King [dom] of God, and His righteousness, was everyday, always w/ Paul,.. and the othe Disciples / Apostles ?
————-
Please ,...
The Lord sent Paul to a man of God, .. Ananias,..
There are men that has the True Word of God, that has been taught by God,.....that are not taught in a seminary, then in keeping w/ that standard teachings , feeding ,.. down the years w/ many followers.even until now.

* please!
I am speaking this truth , in the love of God !
————
Paul had never heard from God, but when he was drawed to God, by His Grace, he was led / sent by The Spirit of God to Ananias, Paul was seeking,.. and God’ will, when He sent him to Ananias,.. not just looking for ‘anybody’
—————
Where is a man, in our day, preaching The Word, as Paul ,Peter, John,.. and the other Disciples / Apostles that were not taught under a denomination, they actually tried to correct that thinking?,... Their teacher was , The Spirit of The Lord,.. and they could see that trying to happen.

They did not have The New Testament,...
We, now, are soo blessed,we can be taught discipled by The Spirit, and confirm it by The Scriptures, that were inspired by God.

2Tim.3:16,
“¶ All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

17 “That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
—————-
What will happen to ‘denomination’s’ when “the time of the Gentiles have come to an end ? .., Do we know ?,...I DO NOT know,... (just some morning ponderings.
—————-

elizabeth

 2019/12/3 12:50Profile
CalvaryCom
Member



Joined: 2007/9/29
Posts: 298
Greater NYC area

 Re:

This discussion is funny...and quite earthbound.

ALL of the saints who have preceded us in death now have a perfect revelation of Jesus Christ in His full glory. They no longer see through a glass darkly. There is no denominational schism in heaven. They all have perfect theology. One day we'll be the same. End of discussion, really.


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Alec

 2019/12/3 15:08Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1999
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
.This discussion is funny...and quite earthbound.

ALL of the saints who have preceded us in death now have a perfect revelation of Jesus Christ in His full glory. They no longer see through a glass darkly. There is no denominational schism in heaven. They all have perfect theology. One day we'll be the same. End of discussion, really.



Alec: There is a sense in which I absolutely LOVE what you just said. How true.

But we do live here and there is a unity that has to come to the body, not only emotionally, but also in the area of our beliefs and judgements.

Elizabeth, it is denominationalism that blinds us to truth so often. How many times do we establish a doctrine and then read that doctrine into the scriptures we are reading, rather than having the scriptures read out to us what they say.

Let me give an example that I sometimes use. Galatians 5:1 says, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has set you free, and be not entangled again in the yoke of bondage." I often stop right here and ask people, "What is the yoke of bondage that Paul speaks of here." Almost every person I have ever asked said, "It is the bondage to sin." But it is not. Paul goes on in the next few verses to show that we are not to be entangled again in the yoke of bondage to trying to please God by the law.

My point in the example is this. We have our focus so much on defeating sin that we read into Paul's words what we already have on our minds. How many times do we do this due to our denominational slants on scripture?

When we think wrongly, believe wrongly, about something in scripture, our belief has consequences in other areas of scripture, and we are forced to try to make it fit. So we read into a scripture a meaning that tries to protect our belief about another area of scripture. It is a form of blindness. The problem is that, in our own carnal minds, we are all susceptible to this blindness. It takes revelation by the Spirit of God to open our eyes.

I hope everyone involved in this discussion can see my heart through my words. I don't like to debate, argue, or be confrontational. I don't think it is fruitful. I do however think frank discussion can cause us to consider our own ideas in a new light. I have had much change in my belief and perspective over the years. My doctrine is not what it used to be years ago.

But I do think that the subject of Apostles is a good example of what I am talking about. There is nowhere in scripture where the job of an apostle is laid out specifically. When scripture says that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ being the chief cornerstone of that foundation, we cannot derive from that a definition of apostles as one time foundational gifts that were only used for a short period of time. And the fact that some of the apostles (Paul, Peter, John, and Matthew) were used by inspiration to write portions of scripture does not mean that apostles are above scripture. There were men used to write scripture that were not apostles as well. Apostleship does not imply divine ability to write scripture. The problem is the perspective that we bring into that verse, not the plain reading of it.

God used the old testament prophets to foretell the church. He used the apostles as sent ones to bring the message of the gospel to the nation of Israel and to the nations at large. They had a foundational role. Their having a foundational role does not end their function. They are just the ones that God chose to use. Paul's teaching in Ephesians 4 is a teaching for the church in perpetuity. We are always having babes born that need raised to maturity, and these five gifts are God's way of doing that in His body.

I know a couple of men personally that I know occupy the position of apostleship. This does not make them any more special or spiritually significant than men I know who are called to be pastors or teachers. They just fulfill a different role. They are visionaries and planters for the most part. One in particular has supernaturally been used in Cuba (even when it was illegal), Costa Rica, Germany, Africa, Australia, and Argentina as well as here in the US. He is a sent one that brings help to these churches and helps look after their welfare, just as Paul did with the churches he planted. This man would acknowledge his calling, but he is not one who gets his identity from it. He is extremely humble, but carries a weight of the power of the Holy Spirit. But he is just a guy who is used of God.

My admonition would be to hold any kind of denominational doctrines very loosely. Read the word of God without colored glasses. Take it at its word. Be dogmatic only about what it dogmatically states. There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved other than Jesus. We can be totally dogmatic about this, and we should. There is no other way...period. Be open to change where scripture is not explicit. Will there be a pre-trib rapture and a second resurrection, or will there be one return of the King. I am not totally sure. I see valid arguments on both sides. So there is no room for dogmatism here, and no reason to divide over it.


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Travis

 2019/12/3 15:59Profile
dspks
Member



Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 167
Dakotas

 Re: apostles foundational

twayneb said: "When scripture says that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ being the chief cornerstone of that foundation, we cannot derive from that a definition of apostles as one time foundational gifts that were only used for a short period of time."

dspks says: "I do derive!"

It's obvious our two derives differ. :)

 2019/12/4 8:07Profile





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