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CalvaryCom
Member



Joined: 2007/9/29
Posts: 298
Greater NYC area

 Re:

All Christians who hold to the Bible as the plenary, inspired Word of God agree that water baptism is an essential doctrine. Where the divisions occur are over full immersion vs. sprinkling, and infant baptism vs. baptism after conversion. I do not regard these latter points as non-essential in doctrine, but there are many who do (for those interested, I hold to full immersion & baptism after conversion).


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Alec

 2019/11/28 17:54Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

I haven’t herd this verse fully quoted ,
1 Corinthians 11:18-19 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

Gods intent was to have faction, and pau himself was a proponent of a faction that was a approved by god , in regards to challenging peter and others who never understood the depths of revalation givern to Paul for the Gentiles ......

 2019/11/28 19:19Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi Elizabeth,
Ok so to be perfectly clear
I am not talking about the "Apostolic Denomination of Pentecostal Preachers of our day".
I am talking about Apostolic as of Jesus/Paul and the other disciples/Apostles teachings.

Also to be clear I am not saying we should do anything to make it happen only realize that it is coming and pray for it to happen.

Most of the conversation about "Maturity" and "Grace" and the like is to do with problems and divisions within a church or even an individual denomination but the bigger picture is that denominations are a fact and we cant do anything about it but God does not want denominations but one Church in the end.Denominations are not from God and so he does not bless them but he does bless movements,urs
staff

 2019/11/29 10:35Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi Bro,
I made comment on this on a previous thread.
This division is to do with mis behaviour within an individual Church not caused by any huge difference in doctrine and deals with factions rather than a teaching that differs one group of Churches from another.One faction had to be approved by their good behaviour and show up the other as false and not genuine, urs staff

 2019/11/29 10:39Profile
dspks
Member



Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 167
Dakotas

 Re: Denomination’s ,.. ?

Ephesians tells us:

Keep the "unity of the Spirit" IN the "bond of PEACE"

The Holy Spirit UNIFIES ALL true believers... no matter what denomination you may be involved in...

Paul tells us... keep THAT Unity IN the "bond of PEACE".

We are not always at PEACE with fellow believers.

The Holy Spirit doesn't need help in unifying believers. (I can be at odds with a fellow believer BUT never dis-unified)

Our problem is being at Peace with our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

(Oh by the way, "unity" means "ONE" it does NOT mean "uniformity")

 2019/11/29 10:50Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1999
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Staff:

Quote:
.I am talking about Apostolic as of Jesus/Paul and the other disciples/Apostles teachings.



So let me see if I understand what you are saying. Please correct any part of this if it is wrong, because I am trying to paraphrase what you have said so I am sure I understand.

You are saying that the main reason for division among the church is that we do not hold to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, but have strayed from these. So the way back is for the church to be restored to those original teachings, and that is something that God will sovereignly cause to happen and we should be praying for that.

That is what I am hearing. If I am wrong, please let me know.

A question for you.

Are you also saying that there will come a restoration of the apostolic structure of leadership in the church that will bring about this end to factions.

Just wanting to be sure I understand your perspective.


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Travis

 2019/11/29 15:23Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi Twayneb,
Point 1:Not splitting hairs here but denominations rather than just division is among the Church not because nessacarily we dont hold to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles in some cases we do and others we dont.Not a lack of trying in most cases.But rather the Apostolic structure of the early Church is not in operation today.Apostolic Structure includes doctrine and authority obviously.

Point 2 :Yes I am saying there will come a restoration of the Apostolic Structure of leadership and this will bring an end to denominations whether this goes down to petty factions I dont know but I expect so.

A word of caution is that we are not to try and bring this about as we are unable and it would only cause heavy shepparding if we did.I hope that answered the question urs staff

 2019/12/1 14:39Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi DSPKS,
By not putting the verse in context "bond of peace" you have skipped the fact that what Paul was saying is that he wants all things to work correctly and in order.So "bond of peace" is directly linked to the correct working of the gifts as they are listed just after the bond of peace verse.
The Holy Spirit is in all true believers that is obviously correct but what you are saying is this "Because all true believers have the Holy Spirit we are unified" and this is in correct.If that was the case their would have been no need for Paul to write Ephesians 4 or mention the bond of peace at all or write anything about unity .Unity just is a state of "existance" according to your thought process.We dont have to work at it or we dont have to have proper structure because "true believers all have the Holy Spirit" .That cant be because if Structure wasnt important then we would not have had the "twelve" or we would not need a lecture on the working of the gifts in order etc.

So I would say on the face of it a few lines taken out of context looks convincing until you put them back in context attached to structure and the working of the gifts in unity and peace,urs staff




Unity and Maturity in the Body of Christ

1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it a says:

“When he ascended on high,

he took many captives

and gave gifts to his people.” b

9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions c ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

 2019/12/1 14:59Profile
Elibeth
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Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1037


 Re:

Re Staff,
“Hi Elizabeth,
“Ok so to be perfectly clear
I am not talking about the "Apostolic Denomination of Pentecostal Preachers of our day".
—————
appreciate your clarifying
————
Re Staff,..
“I am talking about Apostolic as of Jesus/Paul and the other disciples/Apostles teachings.”
————-
Yes,....
————-
Re Staff,
“Also to be clear I am not saying we should do anything to make it happen only realize that it is coming and pray for it to happen.”
———-
Me:
I don’t think it our place to make it happen either, except to live the Life of Christ in Him and Him in us....it is God that does the work, or can cause the Seed to grow.
———-
***Repeating this phrase you said,... “only realize that it is coming “...
—————-
I was wondering, .I don’t understand,...(that “it is coming”). how did you come by that statement ? Could you point that out to me in The Word?,...Is it no longer here on earth, at all ?.... Do you believe that the Apostolic as of Jesus / Paul and the other disciples / Apostles teaching no longer exists here today ?..
—————
Re....”maturity”.....
———-
Eph.4:14-15,
“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;”

15 “But speaking the truth in love, may ‘grow up’ into him in all things,”which is the head, even Christ:”

(Good to read all of Eph.4,chapter)
—————
* re....unity or One:
————
Jesus’ priestly prayer,...
Jn.17:11,
“Holy Father, keep through ‘thine own name’ those whom thou hast given me, that they may be ‘one’ , as we are”

But what is The Father’s Name , that He kept Jesus in, and wants us kept in ?
His Name is called’the Word of God’ ... His Name is everything that God stands for,.. all His Truth,..all His righteous judgements in all things.so “keep them through thine own Name”

But how is Jesus and The Father ‘One’?
Would it be the true LIFE of God,.. The whole Spirit / Word of God,lived out in Jesus ?....lead by His Father ‘s Spirit?
.......
Hallowed be Thy Name, in earth, as it is in heaven’ ... ( Jesus is praying that His Name will be Hallowed in us,.. His Word,.... His Name, The Holy Spirit,, ....His Name, that was born into us,....to be ‘hallowed In us’
———

Eph.4:13,
“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:”
———-
So why denominations,... what happened along the way ?
Paul was here for a long life of preaching / teaching , but stayed in the ‘one’
teacher, Christ Jesus,... ‘The Way’ , and never, took one verse or Scripture and made a new and different Church, as we can readily see that is today,...
If we have ‘the mind of Christ, as Paul had, ... should not all Scripture flow to make One Whole?... as Paul and the other s that were taught by Jesus, and taught?
Is Christ divided ?

Just taking a close thought and study about >>>> denominations >>>and how they came about and how they continue to grow.

————
2Tim.2:18-19,
“ Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.”

** note: ...( the kingdom of God, is the ‘resurrection of The Lord in us )

19 “Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth ‘the name of Christ’ depart from iniquity.”
————-
Am I wrong to encourage us to consider these things,...... will I rock a boat, so to speak ? That is not my desire, .....
my desire is to promote ‘the kingdom of God’... Only,... always♥️

I tremble,
————-

elizabeth

 2019/12/1 18:49Profile
dspks
Member



Joined: 2006/3/15
Posts: 167
Dakotas

 Re:

Dear Staff,
I believe the Bible does teach that All true believers Do have the Spirit of God living in them...Therefore, we are all unified by One Spirit. As I said ... unity is not what Paul is calling for... but, he is calling us to keeping that unity in the bond of peace. Not putting my spin on the verse nor taking this scripture out of context... just reading it as it is written.
But, thank you for your opinion.

 2019/12/1 20:00Profile





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