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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1999
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

I am not sure that is exactly what I was saying, but I agree with everything you said in your last post. I was not trying to talk about ecumenicalism, nor about compromising with the world.

The original post dealt with the origins of denominations and with denominationalism. I was just pointing out that factions or schisms existed in the church since Paul's time, and were always a result of the carnality of man.

Most denominations split over scripture interpretations. They each think that their slant is right and in most cases will argue for the fact that "those other folks" interpretation is wrong. How many, many sermons have I heard that decry the error in another group.

But both groups in this scenario cannot be right, and perhaps both are wrong. The Holy Spirit is consistent, and there is only one truly correct way to interpret scripture.

The mature will recognize this and will not become contentious in defending their own belief where the subject is not an essential doctrine. (Remember, I am not talking about things like salvation by grace or the deity of Christ here. I am talking about a host of small, non-essential issues that we divide over so often.) . The mature will realize that they have every possibility of seeing it wrongly and will seek to understand and know the truth. They will not divide and form factions or if you will denominations over something like eschatology or which Bible version they like best. Instead, they will walk in a unity that always comes from spiritual maturity.

In 1 Corinthians 1-3, Paul says that they are carnal because they divide themselves along the lines of their favorite teacher. Some followed Paul, some Apollos, and some Peter, saying that the teachings of their particular man were the thing they followed after. Paul says that this is due to their carnality. But he contrasts this in chapter 2 when he talks about the fact that a spiritual man can judge other men along spiritual lines because the spiritual man has the mind of Christ.

Denominations, then, boil down to men holding to their own ideas and beliefs with their carnal mind. Unity is a result of spiritual men dying to themselves and their own thinking and learning to walk in the Spirit and hear from God.


_________________
Travis

 2019/11/24 8:36Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Travis writes

Quote:
Most denominations split over scripture interpretations. They each think that their slant is right and in most cases will argue for the fact that "those other folks" interpretation is wrong. How many, many sermons have I heard that decry the error in another group.

But both groups in this scenario cannot be right, and perhaps both are wrong. The Holy Spirit is consistent, and there is only one truly correct way to interpret scripture.

The mature will recognize this and will not become contentious in defending their own belief where the subject is not an essential doctrine. (Remember, I am not talking about things like salvation by grace or the deity of Christ here. I am talking about a host of small, non-essential issues that we divide over so often.) . The mature will realize that they have every possibility of seeing it wrongly and will seek to understand and know the truth. They will not divide and form factions or if you will denominations over something like eschatology or which Bible version they like best. Instead, they will walk in a unity that always comes from spiritual maturity.

In 1 Corinthians 1-3, Paul says that they are carnal because they divide themselves along the lines of their favorite teacher. Some followed Paul, some Apollos, and some Peter, saying that the teachings of their particular man were the thing they followed after. Paul says that this is due to their carnality. But he contrasts this in chapter 2 when he talks about the fact that a spiritual man can judge other men along spiritual lines because the spiritual man has the mind of Christ.

Denominations, then, boil down to men holding to their own ideas and beliefs with their carnal mind. Unity is a result of spiritual men dying to themselves and their own thinking and learning to walk in the Spirit and hear from God.



Couldn't have summed it up better. I'd add to the examples of non-essentials continuationism vs cessationism and Cal vs Arm vs non-Cal, which some are insistent on defending and upholding at the cost of unity. It's one thing to respectfully share and discuss one's views on these types of non-essentials, and quite another to demand that others see these things their way else they cannot have close fellowship in Christ with others. The latter has been the main cause of denominationalism within Evangelicalism.


_________________
Oracio

 2019/11/24 12:31Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1999
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Oracio: Agreed. discussing these issues is not only completely in order, but I think important and necessary. But the discussion should center around both people coming to a knowledge of the truth and should be entered into prayerfully. The discussion should never be about defending my own point of view. What good is a discussion if, in the end, I am not drawn closer to Christ and made to conform more into His image and likeness?


_________________
Travis

 2019/11/25 8:03Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi Travis and Oracio,
As I have said on the thread I put up earlier the difference between denominations is teaching or doctrine or scriptural interpretation which ever way you want to put it.
To suggest that "maturity" will somehow solve the problem of bad teaching does not make any sense."Maturity will not cause denominational Christianity to cease.
When Jesus was confronted by the "Sadducees" regarding their problem with resurrection he didnt say if you are "mature" or if you are "graceful" or if you "love" one another this division will go away.
No Jesus fought fire with fire,they came to him with poor teaching or doctrine and he used correct doctrine to respond to their ignorance.
He didnt say if only you were "mature" and it will all be ok.
Also as a footnote as I have said without response previously "who decides what is essential and what is non essential"? and why bother teaching at all the "non essentials" even if you can agree what they are.

Denominations have to go and go the will in God's timing not mans.Personally I think talk of "maturity" is just an excuse so we can rationalize why we have denominations and make ourselves feel better about this totally unscriptural practice,staff



Qoute:

The mature will recognize this and will not become contentious in defending their own belief where the subject is not an essential doctrine. (Remember, I am not talking about things like salvation by grace or the deity of Christ here. I am talking about a host of small, non-essential issues that we divide over so often.) . The mature will realize that they have every possibility of seeing it wrongly and will seek to understand and know the truth. They will not divide and form factions or if you will denominations over something like eschatology or which Bible version they like best. Instead, they will walk in a unity that always comes from spiritual maturity.

 2019/11/27 9:43Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1091
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Travis and Oracio make good points, godliness leads to a harmonious unity between believers.

But Staff is also correct in that the reality of our Church does not consist of non-denominational mature Christians and denominated immature Christians, it consist of both maturity levels...and history has shown godly mature men have been schismatic...and with great approval from the Church in general.

In short, being mature is not a qualification for having a 'set of doctrines'. The youngest believers have 'doctrines' and like myself think those doctrines are handed down by stone tablets to them personally.

The exact same thing may be said of those in leadership positions. My point...what the congregations hear/taught is coming from those in authority, but that authority is not always admixed with spiritual maturity.

In fact, all we (who walk in the Spirit) know that God gives us responsibilities and calling way in advance of our Spiritual maturity and God calls us into them way in advance of Spiritual manhood/womanhood.

Staff: I hope you don't take this as excuses for denominationalism, it's the reality of what it means to walk in the Christian faith.

I'll go ahead and say it...it seems...that God has cared more for our love and service despite our short-comings, maturity or schismatic differences than he has removal of any denomination.

Oracio and Travis are offering what they believe to be the surest way to end denominationalism...but that solution has it's own caveats...but so does 'apostolic doctrine' handled and lived out by the immature.

For the sake of those confused as to where I am going; I am saying that denominationalism can be and has been an enemy to the growth of the Church...and to reiterate earlier statements it has also been a blessing to it.
World-sized fixes need a bigger-than-world God to solve them. Until then on our own personal level we offer solutions to schism and factions for a platform of doctrinal purity and love towards one another.


_________________
Marvin

 2019/11/27 11:33Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1037


 Re:

Re:
Travis says,
“Most denominations split over scripture interpretations. They each think that their slant is right and in most cases will argue for the fact that "those other folks" interpretation is wrong. How many, many sermons have I heard that decry the error in another group.”

“But both groups in this scenario cannot be right, and perhaps both are wrong. The Holy Spirit is consistent, and there is only one truly correct way to interpret scripture. “
———————
To this Travis I certainly agree,

Also,..you said,
“In 1 Corinthians 1-3, Paul says that they are carnal because they divide themselves along the lines of their favorite teacher. Some followed Paul, some Apollos, and some Peter, saying that the teachings of their particular man were the thing they followed after. Paul says that this is due to their carnality. But he contrasts this in chapter 2 when he talks about the fact that a spiritual man can judge other men along spiritual lines because the spiritual man has the mind of Christ.”
———
I wonder could denominationalim have started from about this time, or soon thereafter? And what about today ? ....when man got off into the carnal .
We know the opposite of being ‘carnal’ I.e.,.. carnally minded, ... the opposite is to be in The Spirit and to be ‘Spiritually minded’ .

>>> We listen to man, ... but with our ears tuned toward The Spirit of God,..


To be Spiritually minded, is to set our minds upon The Rock,.. the solid foundation.

Yes, it was because of carnally, as Paul has said, and you, Travis, have pointed out.

Paul knew carnality when he saw it.
Did Paul choose a denomination,... I am a Pentecostal, ... because his ministry came some time after Pentecost,.. but what did He point out to these people,.. but to look always to Jesus,..The Holy Spirit,..
just as God told the disciples that were on the mount w/Jesus. God said,”This is my beloved Son, Hear He Him”
—————-
Paul had, and taught that solid foundation, and yet he told them “if I or anyone else preach to you another gospel , let them be accursed.”
>>. So, how are we going ‘to know’ the gospel,.. what is meant by ‘the gospel’, except by The Spirit of God that teaches us....taught by The Spirit of God,Himself ?

*another example,...
Mt.16:12,
Jesus,
“asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
And Peter answered and said, “Thou art The Christ The Son of The Living God” (Peter was being ‘Spiritually minded’ )
And Jesus told him , ..blessed are you,... (blessed are you ??),...that flesh and blood had not ‘revealed’ that unto Him, But my Father which is in heaven.

* and Jesus goes on to say, that upon this “revealed’ Word of God,.. The Rock,.. this solid foundation, He would build His Church.

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

19 “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
* But What is ‘the keys to the kingdom’ ?

** But then , just a few verses down, Peter became ‘carnally minded’ ,....desiring and speaking out of a fleshly mind.

Mt.16:22-23,
“ Jesus began to tell them that he going to ,...be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 ¶ “Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.”

23 ¶ “But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men”

+Rom.8:5-14,
“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.”

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”

7 “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

8 “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

9 ¶ “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.”

11 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”

12 ¶ “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.”

13 “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
————-
Now ! , after doing this study, do I believe in denominations, or do I believe there should have been, or should be ‘denominations’ ?...No,.. or do I believe in a continuum of Paul’s day ,teachings and way,.. ?..yes,.. ...conclusion came because of considering what Paul these that were saying,..

‘ 1Cor 1:12-13,
“ “Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.”

13 “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?“

So, really, Paul were telling them , just like God was saying on the mount ,
‘To hear Jesus,His Son’
————
Please note that,...
I AM NOT SAYING , that if one goes to a denominational Church,that they do not hear God speak to them and are not following Him,..I AM NOT SAYING THAT, AT ALL !
Because we know that it is our relationship w/ Him, that is meaningful.
And that the word ‘denomination’ is only ‘a name’ to many, that are in these gatherings of people... that, that is the way we have always known it..... excepting in The Word.

The Word says, for us to ‘hear ye Him’ ,... and ‘my Sheep hear my voice and they follow me’
—————

Heb. 13:7,
“Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, ‘CONSIDERING THE END OF THEIR CONVERSATION,”

Note:
If we wish to, ...The Word has much to say about ‘conversation’ that we can look up.and see how it is used.
————
I tremble to put this out there....

♥️

—————
elizabeth




 2019/11/27 15:58Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I think another hindrance to unity is the fact that there is no concrete or clear-cut agreed upon list of essential and non-essential doctrines. Some are obvious essentials such as the Deity of Christ, salvation by grace through faith in Christ apart from works, and recognizing certain sins as being blatant and intolerable within the church (e.g. fornication and homosexuality). But then there are certain doctrinal topics that some may consider to be dealing with essentials, that may in fact be non-essential in terms of affecting salvation and/or fellowship.

As I look back, I’m convinced that the Lord has shown me that I erred in considering certain topics as essential for either salvation or fellowship or both. I’ll give some examples.

When I first came to Christ, I became convinced of eternal security and had a hard time accepting that true believers can “knowingly” disagree with that doctrine. I was also convinced of cessationism and considered modern-day tongues to be demonic. I was also a Calvinist and had a hard time believing one can be a true believer and “knowingly” believe they could “play any part” (i.e. make a choice) in their salvation. But afterward I became convinced I was being immature to reason as such and to be divisive in my thinking over those issues.

In recent times, I believe the Lord has shown me I shouldn’t divide over the issue of the meaning of hell or eternal punishment. For a long time, I was convinced that one couldn’t possibly be a true believer and deny eternal conscious torment, even though I knew John Stott had held to annihalationism and was well-respected within Evangelicalism. When I found out that David Servant (who heads up Heaven’s Family ministries) embraced annihilationism, I placed a block on his email newsletters. However, once I started listening to Steve Gregg’s verse by verse Bible teachings and learned that he had a disdain for the doctrine of eternal conscious torment-he says he hasn’t made up his mind on which view to hold, but to me it seems he leans toward annihilationism), I began being more tolerant of Christians who disagreed with eternal conscious torment and came to see that too as being non-essential for both salvation and fellowship.

So I can understand why some of us may be intolerant of certain views which we consider to be dealing with the essentials of the faith.

Again, I think denominationalism has hindered Christians from maturing in this area of essential vs non-essential doctrines. Too many treat non-essential doctrines as essential for either salvation or fellowship or both.


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Oracio

 2019/11/27 16:06Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1999
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I think another hindrance to unity is the fact that there is no concrete or clear-cut agreed upon list of essential and non-essential doctrines. Some are obvious essentials such as the Deity of Christ, salvation by grace through faith in Christ apart from works, and recognizing certain sins as being blatant and intolerable within the church (e.g. fornication and homosexuality). But then there are certain doctrinal topics that some may consider to be dealing with essentials, that may in fact be non-essential in terms of affecting salvation and/or fellowship.



Staff also spoke to this issue of essential and non-essential doctrines, as well as to the point about maturity. But Elizabeth pointed out the difference between carnality and the person who is spiritual (walking in the Spirit).

Maturity is not an age nor a number of years passing since being born again. Maturity is not about how many people one influences, nor about the position one attains in a church, however high in the leadership structure that may be.

Maturity is a spiritual pursuit. I have seen men five years old in the Lord that far exceeded the spiritual maturity of men that have been saved for 30 years. Paul tells us in Eph. 4 that maturity is growing up into the stature and measure of a full grown man of God. Maturity comes from being transformed into His image from glory to glory as we behold him with an unveiled face, fellowshipping in deep intimacy with Him. Maturity comes as we die to self and learn to live only through Him.

Paul's description in 1 Cor. 2 is that of a mature man of God. He is a man that is taught by the Holy Spirit. He is a man that is in such intimate fellowship with God that he knows the mind of the Spirit, that he has the mind of Christ.

I have never seen two such men that were not in unity, both of attitude or heart and of doctrine. I have never seen two such men who could not differentiate between those teachings that are essential and those that are ancillary.

Paul is really very clear. These divisions come only of carnality. Paul did not say these people were not saved. He did not say these people did not love God, did not have valid ministries, and did not legitimately lead people to Christ. He simply said that these people who divided themselves among different teachers were carnal, and acting as mere men.

I would even go so far as to say that there are many men of God who are leading large ministries today and are doing great things for the kingdom, but are carnal in that they retain a divisive spirit where their particular pet doctrines are concerned. While they may be winning many to Christ, their potential is reduced by their own intellect. They have a human or fleshly understanding that has not been surrendered to God where doctrine and teaching are concerned. Remember, the Holy Spirit does not put many interpretations out there. There is one right perspective, and that is God's.

That is why I can say unequivocally that I have never seen a man totally surrendered to the Holy Spirit that has a divisive or denominational spirit about him.


_________________
Travis

 2019/11/27 18:23Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi GloryandGrace,
Hi I hope you dont mind for the sake of speed I pick out the one line that I disagree with!But I see alot of the good poiints too.
Your Qoute:
Oracio and Travis are offering what they believe to be the surest way to end denominationalism...but that solution has it's own caveats...but so does 'apostolic doctrine' handled and lived out by the immature.

Waiting for "maturity" or "Love" will not end denominations as they are not the reasons why we have the denomination to begin with,the reason is differing doctrines.So the only way to get rid of denominations is by correct doctrine with a recognised Authority behind it.
Apostle Doctrine has no pitfalls and I repeat we should not try to restore it ourselves but wait for God's timing as that would have pitfalls.

May I add as a footnote "Maturity" is linked clearly to the working of the "gifts" as the NASB says "to a mature man".Basically its saying here is the point of the " Apostlic Structure" is to help the Church grow to full "Maturity".
My point is what about the saved members of a denomination who doesnt believe in this structure.How do they gain "maturity" in the first place?And even if your denomination do believe it you still dont have it because it hasnt been restored yet!
So I theirfore I reiterate that Apostolic structure has to be restored by God in God's timing,urs staff


13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [e]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [f]which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
KING JAMES VERSION
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 2019/11/28 14:55Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1037


 Re:

Staff,
You are talking about ‘Apostolic Doctrine ‘ and ‘Apostolic structure’

Question :
Are you talking about the Apostolic Denomination of Pentecostal preachers of our day, ....or Apostolic as of Jesus,Paul, and the other disciples/apostles teachings ?

In most cases, there is much difference.

In our day, they branch, off into many, many different denominations under different names, calling it ‘Apostolic’ doctrine.

If a ‘doctrine’ is not a doctrine that makes one WHOLE, as Jesus taught,.. is it really the ‘doctrIne’ of Jesus,...? Also the same doctrine that Paul and other disciples were taught by Jesus,... he then told them to go out and teach ? ...that is our guidelines .

I am not sure I understand...

We speak the truth in love, as The Lord shows us,.. teaches, ..plus our life, but it is only The Lord, we know, that can work the heart.

We mature, as we ,”put His yoke upon us and learn of Him”.... always being learners / discipled by Him. And that is a continuation.
Because The Word was given to Jesus without measure,
but unto us , it is given by measure.

Please show me if I am not reading you right.

——————-
elizabeth


Added:
Heb.13:8-9,
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”

9 “Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein”.

 2019/11/28 16:59Profile





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