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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Denominational Christianity is Not God's Best for the Church

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staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Oracio,
Their is a wide difference between Baptists and Pentecostals (generalizing) on the gifts and tongues are a small part of that.
Its not that we must divide from others ,we already have,the horse has bolted Pentecostals are one set of denominations and Baptists are another.Its not that both sets of believers dont recognize that the other are saved ,its just that their is a division there caused by doctrine already.
Varying beliefs in eternal security makes one Church totally different than another.
Just because I recognize the good in John Wesley doesnt mean that I think he was right on all doctrine and he more than likely would not fellowship with a Church I attend and I would find his Church hard for me to attend.So their is a division between John Wesley and Myself on doctrine.One of us is right perhaps John Wesley ,perhaps not and the other is wrong.Both are not right and if it was down to a small issue like described in the bible it wouldnt cause a denominational split but on the bigger issues it does,staff

 2019/11/13 8:52Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi staff, it seems that we are understanding each other's views on this topic now as opposed to talking past each other and for that I'm glad.

What I get is that, while you do not see those two doctrines you mentioned as essential for salvation, you do see them as essential for fellowship within the same church.

So that's were we disagree. I see those two doctrinal issues (as well as others that some may consider to be essential for close fellowship), as being non-essential for both salvation and close fellowship.

Just like that church I mentioned was able to work things out despite the differences among them regarding baptism, churches can work things out regarding other non-essential doctrines, including the two you mentioned. The problem is that they don't want to even try to show grace and respect for other believers who disagree on those points. I'm referring to showing grace and respect in terms of welcoming others into their local church's membership.


_________________
Oracio

 2019/11/13 20:40Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Oracio,
Sorry maybe its my explanation but your missing my point.

A:Its not just the couple of doctrines mentioned they are just examples.It could be other examples
B:These Doctrines and others have already caused division and already stopped fellowship.The divisions are their whether essential or non essential.
C:Churches cant work things out despite differences ,if they could then their would be no denominatioal differences.So their is no real fellowship between Medthodist and Pentecostals.
Why would I ever want to go to Methodist Church me being a Pentecostal?I'd find it dead and would have to question some of their beliefs.
D:Your basically saying to me Churches can get over denominationalism by being nice to each other and show Grace then we will have no division.This is not accurate and it wont work when it comes to denominations.
E:We wont have close fellowship as our denomiational differences will quickly arise.We may get on well but their will always be a barrier.

But this is what your really missing Oracio from my posts.

Doctrinal differences(whatever they may be) cause Denominations.
Denominations are not from God
The only way to have one Church with no denominations is correct Doctrine.
staff

 2019/11/14 5:56Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Again Oracio

Id be interested what your actual view is on the points below would be.

Doctrinal differences can cause Denominations.
(Bearing in mind not all Doctrinal Differences cause denominations)
Denominations are not from God
The only way to have one Church with no denominations is correct Doctrine.

staff

 2019/11/14 6:08Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi staff, I don’t think I’m missing your point but simply disagreeing with your viewpoint on this topic. And that’s okay. I used to think similarly. I do think it’s unfortunate with all due respect. Because it’s a viewpoint wherein one refuses to accept that Christians can have close fellowship despite disagreements in non-essentials.

Quote:
A:Its not just the couple of doctrines mentioned they are just examples.It could be other examples


I understand that. Again, those and other doctrines are non-essentials and should not cause divisions among Christians.

Quote:
B:These Doctrines and others have already caused division and already stopped fellowship.The divisions are their whether essential or non essential.


Right, but it doesn’t mean the divisions on non-essentials are justifiable in God’s sight.

Quote:
C:Churches cant work things out despite differences ,if they could then their would be no denominatioal differences.So their is no real fellowship between Medthodist and Pentecostals.


Again, they could all have a Sunday Service where certain gifts were not practiced but there would only be worship singing and preaching and teaching of God’s Word, and mutual respect. Then they could have other meetings (whether on Sundays or otherwise) where those certain gifts could be practiced. Just like the church I mentioned had separate infant baptism ceremonies apart from the regular Sunday Service. Believers Baptism vs Pedobaptism has also been a non-essential issue which many have treated as essential for close fellowship. That’s just one example.

Quote:
Why would I ever want to go to Methodist Church me being a Pentecostal?I'd find it dead and would have to question some of their beliefs.


I’m not saying you should try to go to a church where you’re not welcome because of your stance on non-essentials. I’m saying it’s the denominational church’s fault for not being willing to accept you and show respect despite the disagreements on non-essentials.

At the same time, you also would have to respect their concerns and their emphasis on the preaching and teaching of God’s Word. And I’m not referring to liberal and apostate churches.

Quote:
D:Your basically saying to me Churches can get over denominationalism by being nice to each other and show Grace then we will have no division.This is not accurate and it wont work when it comes to denominations.


Again, this is where we disagree. If Christians and churches were truly Spirit-filled, they would be more willing to work with churches and Christians who may disagree in non-essentials.

Quote:
E:We wont have close fellowship as our denomiational differences will quickly arise.We may get on well but their will always be a barrier.

But this is what your really missing Oracio from my posts.


Again, I don’t think I’m missing your points but simply disagree brother. Despite denominational differences quickly arising, Christians can work toward unity if they are truly Spirit-filled.

Quote:
Doctrinal differences(whatever they may be) cause Denominations.
Denominations are not from God
The only way to have one Church with no denominations is correct Doctrine.


Again I disagree brother. Another way to have one Church, besides getting straightened out in non-essentials or having correct Doctrine, is to accept and work with one another despite those differences.

Quote:
Id be interested what your actual view is on the points below would be.


I’m not fully convinced one way or the other regarding those two doctrinal issues. I see good arguments on both sides.


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Oracio

 2019/11/14 15:33Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Can I share an analogy and get some feedback?

Granted, this is not some 'position' I hold it more of a thinking out loud analogy that could use some scrutiny.

Here's the analogy.

There were 12 tribes in Israel, each of these "ites"...you know the Gadites, Ruebenites, Benjamin et al comprised Israel. God left the 'human' differences of tribes intact for reasons of his own. These tribes had their own lands and leaders and families. They all were called upon to war when needed, to give aid when needed and were all looked upon by God as Israel as a whole.

Jesus spoke of the Church in like manner when in Revelation he dealt with the 'Church-of' and then praised or corrected them. But the 7 comprised the 1 true Church.

It maybe the Calvinites and the Arminianites, the Pentacostalites and the Baptites are looked upon by God in a similar manner.
All of these 'ites" have their own leaders, families and inheritance...but are all still considered the Church of God.

God permitting these divisions because of our flesh works within the 'bounds' of our denominations doing his will through us not just in spite of, but because of denominational differences.

I very much agree with Staff's idea that denominations are not the 'perfect' that has come, but I also agree with Oracio on many points as well.

I have no answer to the conundrum that denominations by their very nature create, but I cant ignore the work of God done because denomination emphasize various biblical truths and act upon them to the good of the Church as a whole.

All I'm saying is the division that a denomination may create doctrinally is overcome by godliness and love toward one another as Oracio so eloquently stated. But doctrinal positions do not overcome carnality and ungodliness no matter the doctrine or the carnal man no matter what tribe he may be from.

Right doctrine...which I am 100% for is only part of what it means to be a mature man in Christ. Righteous living among the lost and the Church is equally necessary in healing divisions created by carnal minds swinging doctrinal swords.

Just a few of my thoughts...what do you think?


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Marvin

 2019/11/14 16:02Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Oracio,
I honestly and respectfully think you are avoiding the question.

Even if I reduce it down to one question which is.
Are denominations from God or not?
Bearing in mind if they are not then we have a problem that has not been solved,a pretty major one.

I pick out this qoute because it is the nub of your arguement.:

Again, this is where we disagree. If Christians and churches were truly Spirit-filled, they would be more willing to work with churches and Christians who may disagree in non-essentials.

Firstly we've had Spirit Filled Churches forever and they are not willing to fellowship with each other even though they do recognize that the other is saved.So it hasnt worked to get rid of the man made barrier due to doctrinal differences.One mans non essential is another mans essential.Jesus,Paul or Peter would not put up with doctrine that was wrong and that hsd caused a division to form.They would have corrected the wrong doctrine .They wouldnt say be civil,kind,gracious and be Spirit filled the division will heal itself.If being civil,kind,gracious and spirit filled was enough to stop denominational divisions why do we still have those man made divisions?Its because the divisions are caused by doctrine and can only be solved by doctrine.

Finally your qoute:
I’m saying it’s the denominational church’s fault for not being willing to accept you and show respect despite the disagreements on non-essentials.

No its not there fault for not being willing to accept me as they might be right and I might be wrong!
You see they cant respect my views if my views are wrong .Which brings me back to the point ,When two doctrines oppose each other ,one is right and one is wrong.If the Apostles were here they would tell the difference,If Jesus was here he would tell the difference between which doctrine was correct and which is not.Furthermore he wouldnt say be Spirit filled and it will all be ok.Being truly Spirit filled is not the answer to denominational splits.
,staff



 2019/11/14 17:23Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi GloryandGrace
The tribal splits of the 12 tribes were nothing to do with doctrine,they all believed the same thing so in that sense the analogy doesnt quite hold water respectfully.
If the Rueben believed 90% and Gad believed 50% of the truth and lets say Benjamn 15% of the truth then that would be a good analogy.I would even say it kinda backs my arguement up that for them to come together as a force for aid or war or sacrifice and to work at their very best they needed to believe the same thing.So the divisions were not denominational or wrong in any way.So we cannot equate a denomination like Pentecostal as a Gad and Methodist as a Judah .Even though Judah and Gad and Rueben had differences they were not doctrinal.

I neither do ignore that certain moves of God highlighted or emphasized various biblical truths but once the movement lapsed into an organised denominational structure the good became less and less.I do however have a very simple anwser to the conundrom that denominations create.God gets rid of them is the answer by restoring Apostolc Authority by a move of his Spirit.

Your Qoute
I have no answer to the conundrum that denominations by their very nature create, but I cant ignore the work of God done because denomination emphasize various biblical truths and act upon them to the good of the Church as a whole.

Love toward each other and Godliness cannot without proper doctrine overcome denominational divisions.Surely Godliness or being like God is knowing is also knowing Gods teachings.?

Your Qoute:
All I'm saying is the division that a denomination may create doctrinally is overcome by godliness and love toward one another as Oracio so eloquently stated. But doctrinal positions do not overcome carnality and ungodliness no matter the doctrine or the carnal man no matter what tribe he may be from.

If love and kindness and being Spirit filled was the answer to false Doctrine or incomplete doctrine then we would have no denominations right now but the proof of the pudding is in the eating,staff

 2019/11/14 17:47Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Marvin, great analogy which I think explains well what God's been doing. While it's not God's ideal, there is no doubt that He's used denominations as you pointed out.


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Oracio

 2019/11/14 17:55Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi staff, I have tried explaining myself as best as I could. If you still believe I'm missing your point, what can I say? It's all good bro. No worries.


_________________
Oracio

 2019/11/14 17:59Profile





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