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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA


Partial or full preterism is a tough call.

Pretty much every eschatological prediction fulfilled in the 1st century (this includes Paul and Revelation)....then 2000 or 3000 or 4000 years of the bible not talking about anything....then a millennium or not, a second coming or not, a judgment or not and then the end.

If the prophecies are all relegated to the early Church just like apostles prophets and spiritual gifts...there's really not much for God to do until Jesus returns.

Complete over-simplification yes...but it makes me wary of such a viewpoint. This of course not an argument against the view, it's only an observation.


 2019/5/23 11:28Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2154


/The "man of sin" is the Roman emperor(s) who brought severe persecutions against Christians as foretold by Daniel and pictured in Revelation 13./

So the "man of sin" (man is singular) may be more (plural) than one Roman emperor. Non logic greets us in the very first sentence. It a typical modus operandi though for many interpreters of prophecy today. Meaning they treat biblical prophecy unlike any o0ther field of biblical knowedge because they have to strain and change meanings to make their own views work. More of this example follows.

/The reason that they should not be shaken is that the coming of Jesus would not take place until there was a falling away and until there was the revealing of "the MAN (singular) of lawlessness, the son of destruction" (vs. 3). A time would come when "because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold" (Matt. 24:12). This would be a "falling away." Then there would also be A MAN of lawlessness, ONE WHO who would have "contempt and violation of law" (Thayer, p. 42). THIS MAN would act with utter contempt for God and His way. HE is called the "son of destruction." Apoleia: "the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition ... A MAN doomed to eternal misery. 2 Th 2:3" (Thayer, p. 71). THIS MAN of sin would be eternally damned as a result of HIS godless iniquity and opposition to all that is holy. In verse 4 THIS MAN of sin "opposes and exalts HIMSELF above every so-called god (all that is called God) or object of worship so that HE takes his seat in the temple of God displaying HIMSELF as being God." HIS lawlessness consists in opposing God and God's people and in exalting HIMSELF to a position of honor and worship that belongs only to Deity. HE claims a higher position than could ever belong to man, a position in which HE demands worship from man./

Of course, we need remember I suppose that THIS MAN may indeed be more than one man and perhaps many Roman emperors. That's the way prophetic biblical language is.

/and it had ten horns"

Therefore, the horns were emperors. The number ten should be taken in the sense of a completed number rather than ten literal kings/

A perfect example of changing meanings. Ten, in biblical prophecy, really does not mean ten we are to assume. No qualifications or reasons are given why this ten cannot really mean ten. It's just automatically assumed that in the case of biblical prophecy does not really mean ten so this modus operandi of interpretation is never challenged because after all a "expert" is passing it on to us. Plus he does not even consider Daniel 7:24 - "The ten horns are ten kings who shall arise from his kingdom." Nor is Revelation 17:12 - "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings which who have received no kingdom as of yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast."

/We just want to see that both Daniel and John saw the diabolical evil "king" persecuting the people of God for "forty-two months" or 3 1/2 years or 1,260 days. Of course, this is not a specific, literal timeframe, but incomplete time (one half of the perfect number, seven)./

This is not a specific, literal timeframe? When I read it it says specifically forty-two months or 3 1/2 years or 1,260 days. Why can't I trust it specifically says what it means? Another example of prophetic interpretation that has to do these type of things to make one's own view plausible. No other field of biblical truth is treated in this manner except prophecy.

/I fail to see that advantage to these people for Paul to be speaking of some far removed event./

When speaking of THIS MAN Paul uh..., specifically stated that he would be destroyed at Christ's return.

8 And then the lawless one (singular) will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (II Thess 2:8) This will be far removed from Paul's day.

/. I urge you to study this diligently and reach your conclusions carefully. In so far as it is possible, we need to allow the Bible to help us understand prophecy. We do not need speculation./

I recommend that also but without going in to study with the presupposition that the biblical text doesn't really mean what it says and need be changed as to its foundational meaning so it can fit my view. Ten means ten and forty-two months means forty-two months etc. It's costly to jiggle with the text.

If this man of sin is to be destroyed at Christ's return then how could these things been exhaustively fulfilled in Paul's day by Roman emperors? I don't see where they were destroyed at Christ's second advent.

David Winter

 2019/5/23 13:41Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2154

 Re: Antiochus Was Never a Litttle Horn


Antiochus was Never a Little Horn

I don’t think anyone’s calling attention to something that should be in the first place most obvious, but have never seen a commentator even question it. It’s like the emperor that had no clothes, or the forest that gets lost for the over focus on the trees. We should be shouting from the roof tops in the exegetical climate of our calm interpreters and linguistic specialists, “Antiochus was NEVER a little horn!!!

He was never king of a small power before coming into “the glory of the kingdom” (Dan 11:21). He rose to power in the place of his murdered older brother in one of the “notable” (sizable) horns of Alexander’s long since divided kingdom, the mighty Seleucid Empire. That’s NOT a little horn in the sense that scripture makes that distinction.

The Antichrist must be a little horn (actual king or leader of a smaller political power) in his beginnings. AFTER the league made with him, he “comes up and becomes strong with a small people (Dan 11:23) … at a time of security (Dan 11:24). At some point, he unites with the ten in common cause. The scripture says he comes up AMONG them, and rises AFTER them (Dan 7:8, 24). Three of the ten are forced into his orbit of power through conquest.

Just when this occurs in relation to the false peace that provides for temple and sacrifice is not as clear, but it is clear if the ‘little horn’ of Dan 7 & 8 is the ‘despicable person’ of Dan 11:21, then it seems very clear that the move from a little power to a much greater power in one of the four divisions of Alexander’s kingdom is significantly “AFTER the league made with him” Dan 11:23. If this “league” is the same or coincident with the covenant that the coming prince confirms with many in Dan 9:27, then the time of his ascent into the greater kingdom becomes plain. We shall see.

What is really fantastic scrambled eggs is what strikes me as the ridiculous, presupposition driven attempt of expositors to separate the “little horn” of Dan 7:8 from the “little horn” of Dan 8:9. Sorry if I sound a bit scrappy here, but they really should to be called on this. Here in twin chapters is a self exalting prince at the time of the “END”, both (as they were two) speaking boastful words against the prince of Princes, and both, by every expositor’s reckoning, taking away the regular sacrifice (Dan 8:11: 12:11), and we are to believe that Antiochus is the ‘little horn” in Dan 8 and the Antichrist is the “little horn” in Dan 7, and never the twain shall meet? Hardly!

(Reggie - 10/10/13)

David Winter

 2019/5/23 13:52Profile

Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1830
Hemel Hempstead


My deepest interest is how will the false Christ reveal the antichrist , we are so good at looking externally but internally in the church seems to be a problems

Deception that is elsewhere but self deception that we are into is alot more harder to spot

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. note

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The problems with the preterist view is that the antichrist is destroyed by Jesus and that did not happen with antiochus

My problem has been as how do you define Rome as in the dead sea Scrolls

the ‘Kittim’ are Romans; it was the ambassador of the Roman senate, Poppilius Laenas, brought to Alexandria by ‘ships of Kittim’, i.e. the Roman fleet, who instructed the ‘king of the North’, the Seleucid monarch Antiochus Epiphanes, to withdraw at once from Egypt. The term ‘Romans’ is substituted for ‘Kittim’ already in the old Greek or Septuagint version of Daniel xi, 30. None of these texts is critical of the ‘Kittim’. They are seen

So in the first century they rename the Romans kittim

The War Scroll (1 QM, 1Q33, 4Q491– 7, 4Q471)

They shall recite there [all the] war [hy] mns. Afterwards they shall return to [their] cam[ ps] … XV For this shall be a time of distress for Israel, [and of the summons] to war against all the nations. There shall be eternal deliverance for the company of God, but destruction for all the nations of wickedness. All those [who are ready] for battle shall march out and shall pitch their camp before the king of the Kittim and before all the host of Belial gathered about him for the Day [of Revenge] by the Sword of God.

The Book of War (4 Q285, 11Q14)

Kittim … [the Pr] ince of the congregation [will pursue them] as far as the [Great] Sea … [and they shall fle] e from before Israel. In that time … he shall stand against them and they shall be stirred against them … and they shall return to the dry land. In that time … and they shall bring him (the king of the Kittim?) before the Prince [of the Congregation] …

Aprodite and the rabbi's

In the Talmud they refer to Rome as

Israel and Edom are nonetheless brothers, twins at that. When the rabbis chose a symbol for Rome it is true that they chose the one who was “set against them.” But we cannot ever forget that the classic rabbinic symbol picked to represent Rome is Jacob’s fraternal twin. It strikes me that in this choice of Esau as the symbol of Rome, the rabbis gave voice to the complexity of their relationship. Yes, Rome is rhetorically construed as the eternal enemy. Yes, Jews in the Land of Israel rebelled against Rome twice. Yes, Rom
e exercised a harsh hegemony against the Jews of Roman Palestine and elsewhere in the Empire.

“How admirable are the deeds of this nation. They have built markets, bridges, and bath-houses.” His colleague Rabbi Yosé was silent; but Rabbi Shimeon ben Yochai retorted, “Anything they have built has been for their own needs. They build markets so their whores have a place to ply their trade. Bath-houses to pamper themselves, and bridges to collect tolls and taxes.” (Babylonian Talmud Shabbat 33b) Elsewhere Rabbi Hanina sourly notes, “Pray for the peace of the Empire; for were it not for the fear they inspire, people would swallow one another alive” (Avot 3:2)

It is interesting looking at first century literature as the dead sea Scrolls and the Talmud

The dead sea Scrolls interpret Daniel in an interesting way

I have been open minded about who the anti Christ will be as the early church fathers thought it was the pope and i have no problems with that

I have been open that the antichrist may even come from evangelical Christianity or even a Jewish antichrist

He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, will venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us Christians. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.253, 254.

Dominic Shiells

 2019/5/23 17:14Profile

Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 253
Bruceton TN

 Re: many thiink Jesus will be the antichrist (Looking at deception)

Christians are the target of Satan. Jesus said if they (the Sanhedrin or the Jews), hate me they will hate you.

Deception has always been rampant in the earth. The earth is overgrown with the tree of good and evil. Everyone Jesus met had a little knowledge about God and the an idea of the coming messiah. That's how the tree of good and evil is. It's a tree of mixture. All snared by the tree have no idea they are deceived. they cling to what they think is true. The parable of the sower reminds us of this. How the good seed is snatched away.

Likewise, we are taught as a child deception after deception. We are told who our enemies are, who did what in history, world events and on the list goes. Even who caused what in years past. We accept blindly the TV news and our leaders promises. We tend to believe what we read in magazines and newspapers.

The tree of good and evil has trapped everyone in the world.

Jesus came to lay the ax to the root. It's an act of mercy when he chops you out of that tree. You can't leave it on your own as you don't know your're trapped. Jesus said when he sets you free you are free indeed. You are warned about returning to it. But we know people love being in the bad tree. There's money to be made, there's nations to conquer, resources to grab, fame to be had. No one wants to heard they've been deceived. All know what it's like when you realize you've been taken advantage of in a deal or financial matter. As John 3:16 says, God made a way for all, but men love darkness.

Look at all the rulers over the past thousands of years who thought they could rule the world. All victims of the tree. Satan thinks he has it figured out but he too has deceived himself as well.

Looking at Jesus as he Choose and then gathered his disciples at his feet and began to teach them. "You have heard it said, but I say..." "You are the salt of the earth.." "Blessed are you when..." He begins to wash away the tree of good and evil. This is what we all need. We all need to sit at his feet, throw away all those fables of the past and ask him for truth and truth alone.

Now you can see how Jesus was able to say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do..." He knew they were all trapped in the bad tree.

Please ask Jesus to set you free of that other tree. Meditate on it. Sit at the feet of Jesus alone and meditate with him, not someone's work of biblical make believe.

I was shown this one day as I was laying sick in bed thinking of buying a cemetery plot as I wasting away from a bad Dr prescription. This little line kept going by me as I was partially asleep. And I zoomed in on it and there was the tree of life, the narrow way. Barely visible. I saw right away that that was where the fruit was I so desperately needed. That the fruit we need for our lives can't be found on the other tree. Then I realized what Jesus was doing with the disciples.

Amos tells us to be careful at Bethel, but go be taught by our God. Let the Good Shepherd be your teacher.

James R Barnes

 2019/5/23 20:13Profile

Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 253
Bruceton TN

 Re: many thiink Jesus will be the antichrist

I have always thought the elect would not be deceived. But the church is full of tares. There is a question if a tare can become wheat. Apparently not. They can't in real life. As the parable of the tares says, an enemy has infiltrated the church. It's his seed that are the tares. They are children of darkness. Seem like a believer but really aren't one. Were they written in the Book of life at the foundation of the earth? Probably not as they weren't planned by God. There were others who tried to destroy the work of God.

Jesus mentioned how that he had sent prophets and others but they had stoned them. They replied back that if their fathers had lived back then they wouldn't have stoned the prophets. That alone lets you know that those in power in Israel were not of Israel. (Fathers not lived back then). They had crept in unaware just like they will at the end. Ezra 9 mentions how the priests and Levites had failed to obey what God commanded. And I saw where Solomon hired Hittites as wood choppers. Didn't they work their way up as scribes?

There are many story lines that still will run thought he word. If you want to look at a few, there is the story of Jacob and Esau. Esau still wants that blessing and he intends to take it.

Then there is the question of the two sticks; Israel and Judah. If you look in II Kings you see Israel and Judah at war with each other. A divided kingdom. If you take an honest look at today you will see Judah silently moving to rule the world. You could say they have conquered the white house as an Israeli flag flies in the oval office. The signing of the Noahide Laws into Public law by President Bush. Read it for your self. Trump just resigned it this year on the rabbi's birthday.

(Your U.S. government can now legally kill Christians for the “crime” of worshipping Jesus Christ! A diabolic deception has been perpetrated on the American people by their OWN leaders, Senators and Congressmen, who have sold their soul to the devil. On March 5, 1991, in the House of Representatives, and March 7, 1991, in the U.S. Senate, without any knowledge of, or input by, the people of the United States, U.S. Senators and Congressmen passed a law that is so outrageous – and frankly unconstitutional – that it forces the American people to be bound by a set of monstrous rules, called the Noahide Laws, rules that make the belief in Jesus Christ a crime punishable by decapitation by guillotine! On March 20, 1991, President George H.W. Bush, a supposed Christian, signed the bill into law. (Deanna's note: President George W. Bush follows in his father's footsteps. See A Free Press, A Free Pass)

The passage of this law, HJ Res. 104)

So you could say there is a war going on against believers in America right under your nose. Most believe America contains much of the tribe of Ephraim. God rants about Ephraim in Zephaniah, says he doesn't know what to do with Ephraim. The fortress of Ephraim is in Damascus according to Daniel. Then why would Israel want to attack Damascus?
So there are some things for you to think on. Lots of threads still running through the Book. That's why I mentioned recently that Israel is returning to the condition it was in long ago.

God is going to deal with Israel. Ultimately there will be a remnant of believers. The two sticks will be one again one day.

James R Barnes

 2019/5/23 21:09Profile

Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 253
Bruceton TN


The pope and his men held communion in the upper room a few years back. He donned his crown as he sat there. Pretty sure this is a sign that the white horse has taken his place.

James R Barnes

 2019/5/23 21:14Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2057

 Re: man of...

"So the "man of sin" (man is singular) may be more (plural) than one Roman emperor."


"That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works." 2 Timothy 3:17

Same Greek word used here as there.

It is not non logic as you claim.

 2019/5/23 22:50Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2154

 Re: Yet the fact remains

The man of sin Paul speaks of will be slain and brought to an end by Christ at His coming.

Man of Lawlessness

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, (the resurrection and rapture as we are gathered to Him)

2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.


9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Obviously no single Roman emperor nor group of emperors were slain by Christ at Christ's second coming and it hasn't happened since then. I would think then it's entirely legitimate then to look for as future fulfillment.

I can hardly think of no other word to describe what is currently going on in many parts of the church and theological world except apostasy. There have been times of backsliding and waning from the truth but nothing like we are seeing today!!! If this great apostasy is real and literal then the man of sin Paul describes as being revealed after the apostasy should be taken in a real and literal sense I would think. No emperor or emperors were slain by Christ at His coming since Christ has not come again at this point.

David Winter

 2019/5/24 6:29Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5531


Roger wrote:
//(Your U.S. government can now legally kill Christians for the “crime” of worshipping Jesus Christ! A diabolic deception has been perpetrated on the American people by their OWN leaders, Senators and Congressmen, who have sold their soul to the devil. On March 5, 1991, in the House of Representatives, and March 7, 1991, in the U.S. Senate, without any knowledge of, or input by, the people of the United States, U.S. Senators and Congressmen passed a law that is so outrageous – and frankly unconstitutional – that it forces the American people to be bound by a set of monstrous rules, called the Noahide Laws, rules that make the belief in Jesus Christ a crime punishable by decapitation by guillotine! On March 20, 1991, President George H.W. Bush, a supposed Christian, signed the bill into law. (Deanna's note: President George W. Bush follows in his father's footsteps. See A Free Press, A Free Pass)

The passage of this law, HJ Res. 104)//

Good grief Roger. What a load of malarkey.


 2019/5/24 7:17Profile

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