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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Submission to church leadership

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AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3441
Louisiana

 Re:

Frannie wrote:

"I also believe that Leaders Pastors deacons deaconesses.. should be accountable to other leaders.. satan was kicked out of heaven because he had pride and wanted to be equal to GOD and did not want to be accountable to anyone but himself.."


"And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for works of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,… (Ephesians 4:11,12).

In most of the churches today the ministries of Pastors, teachers, and evangelists are recognized, but the Apostolic and Prophetic ministry gifts are overlooked. All of these ministry gifts have been given to the Church to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry.

The ministry of the pastor in most churches today is overemphasized, and many saints have become mere spectators in the church, going on Sunday and many Wednesday nights, hearing a sermon, but for the most part not being activated in their gifts and calling.

Until we recognize all of the fivefold ministry, and that it is the Lord's will that the saints would grow up and be equipped to do the work of the ministry, the Church will never fulfill the purpose of God.

I am thankful that Jesus is the Head of His Church. No man is to be the head. True spiritual authority only comes down from the Head.

True spiritual leaders are not called to be CEO's, but shepherds, servants, but there are many churches today where the sheep are being used to serve the pastor, his ministry, and vision.

In the early 80's I was in a fellowship that had a very gifted pastor. He was a excellent preacher and teacher, moved in the gifts of the Spirit, and his ministry started with bible studies in his home and then a small store front church, and several years later he was the pastor of one of the largest and fastest growing churches in the city. There were many people being saved through the ministry of this church, but as time went on although the Word was being taught, there was an abuse of power by this pastor, and it was either his way or the highway. After much prayer, the Lord led us and many of the most spiritual believers out of this fellowship. About 10 years later he announced to the church that he and his wife were divorced. The church was in his name, so the church was sold and he remarried and moved out of state. The church split up into two or three other churches, and there were many people that were hurt.

This is an example of what can happen to any minister that does not submit himself to the authority of other leaders, and forgets where he came from.

No church is to be built upon a man's ministry. There is only one sure foundation that the Church is to be built upon. The Church of Jesus Christ is the Body of Christ, and there is only one Head of the Body.


_________________
Mike

 2019/4/23 10:30Profile
EAGLEFLYING
Member



Joined: 2012/9/25
Posts: 629


 Re:

Amen. Brother Mike.. As I pray with others for revival.. I am praying that the five fold ministry is restored to all the churches.. It is the foundation..
May we all be in agreement for all the ministries to flow.. The eye cannot see without the foot or the hand.
1 cor 12 14-15.
14For the body does not consist of one part, but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.…

We all need one another.. We are HIS BODY.. We are HIS church.. May the spirit of unity fall and the spirits of offense begone in the name of JESUS.. As I study. I think of Saul and David.. They both had anointings.. However Saul wanted to wear Davids armor.. Sad.. we must be where He wants and use the gifts He has given us and wear our own armor.. may the five fold ministry be restored in JESUS name... Its still Christs Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.... ITS HIS CHURCH...............
Matt 16 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
in Christ
Sister
Frannie


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Frannie

 2019/4/23 19:31Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1975


 Re: one foundation



"In most of the churches today...the Apostolic and Prophetic ministry gifts are overlooked."

Only one foundation is necessary. And it has been laid.

"And you are built up upon the foundation of the Apostles and of the Prophets, and he is The Head of The Corner of the building-Yeshua The Messiah." Eph. 2:20


"These are the names of the twelve apostles: first Simon, called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed Jesus." Matthew 10:2-4

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." Rev.21:14

__________________________

How firm a foundation, you saints of the Lord,
is laid for your faith in his excellent Word!
What more can he say than to you he has said,
to you who for refuge to Jesus have fled?

 2019/4/24 9:58Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 1973


 Re: Foundations are for building upon

And He gave some to be APOSTLES, some PROPHETS, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry... (Ephe 4:11-12)

Evangelists, pastors and teachers are widely and commonly acknowledged but the office and function of apostles and prophets is relegated by many to yesteryear. It has cost the church.


_________________
David Winter

 2019/4/24 10:36Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1075
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


The 5 fold offices are not done away with at the death of the foundational apostles.

we are not wiser than God because we now have a bible in hand. Some think because of that...I have no need of any more apostles or prophets.

So what do we do in their place?

We listen to super-pastors, pastors of ten-thousand, pastors of 10 church venues via video casting. So, we have a super-pastor and get rid of so many non-essential pastors who don't preach as well as the super pastor.

Or so we think.

We elevate a man who has authority over ten churches, or even a hundred churches...and his calling? Pastor.
Either we are errant as to give a man called to be a pastor the job of apostle or the pastor is not a pastor but an apostle...and we wont call him that because tradition has told us there are no more apostles.

We seem to always trick ourselves. We seem to find ways around God's word while claiming we are following God's word.

It's about time we dump the humanist rationlist thinking that has relegated the gifts and the offices to millennia that has long gone.
We do we put in it's place? Rationalism, reason, science, human logic, culture and human ability.
And with that those who imbibe deeply in it consider themselves biblical and the others fanatics.


_________________
Marvin

 2019/4/24 11:23Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1975


 Re: humanist, rationalist, or...?


A man writes,

"It's about time we dump the humanist rationlist thinking that has relegated the gifts and the offices to millennia that has long gone."

----------

"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law."
- Jesus


"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers through the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

 2019/4/24 12:05Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1988
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
In most of the churches today the ministries of Pastors, teachers, and evangelists are recognized, but the Apostolic and Prophetic ministry gifts are overlooked. All of these ministry gifts have been given to the Church to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry.



I think it is good to look at this quote in context rather than only picking out portions of it. All five of these gifts are in operation in the church today. It is God's way of maturing His body. But there have been some abuses in the teaching of the five-fold gifts. Savannah quoted a verse about the church being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The interpretation is right on I think. This verse speaks not of a foundational structure in today's assemblies, but rather of the fact that the prophets of the old testament time laid a foundation that the early apostles (the 11 plus Paul, Timothy, etc.) established as the bedrock of the church.

But we must not miss the fact that Paul in Ephesians is speaking of God's structure for the church, which is us. We get ourselves into trouble when we begin to emphasize or deemphasize any of these gifts in the body. Some of the Apostolic Prophetic movement has tried to emphasize two of these gifts to the body to the extent that everyone is running around trying to be prophetic and elevate apostles and in doing so have left sound doctrine and have become flaky. But on the other hand some are in right field, denying that all five gifts are operating today.

What if instead we simply read Eph. 4 for what it says and accepted it at face value. God has placed men with these gifts in the body to grow and mature the body. These men have as their primary ministry focus the body and not necessarily the lost. They have special calls on their lives and are chosen by God to carry their gift to the body. What if we recognized their anointing, learned from them, and did not make more or less of it than it is.

I know men who are apostles. They would not call themselves "so and so the apostle", but they would frankly say, "Yes, that is the call that God has brought me into." I know men who are pastors, teachers, evangelists, and prophets as well. They are not weird or flaky, just matter of fact, solid in the word, men of prayer, and mightily used of the Holy Spirit.


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Travis

 2019/4/24 13:20Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3441
Louisiana

 Re:



Travis,

I agree with you, and those that those that hand out calling cards saying Apostle or Prophet so and so ought to raise red flags when we see it. True Apostles and Prophets don’t need a title, but are recognized and validated by their function.


_________________
Mike

 2019/4/24 13:53Profile
EAGLEFLYING
Member



Joined: 2012/9/25
Posts: 629


 Re:

AMEN..
We cannot change the word..
EPh 4:11


Ephesians 4:11-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [a]edifying of the body of Christ,

GOD calls He trains He equips.. HE CALLS.. men and women.. Yes they are the foundation of the church today..
If people would allow the LORD TO BE LORD AND USE WHO HE WANTS THE CHURCH would have less of the world in it..
I am believing this is for today..
and pls for freedom sake.. There are women who are in this place also.
ACTS 21.7 And when we had finished our course from Tyre, we came to Ptolemais, and saluted the brethren, and abode with them one day. 8 And the next day we that were of Paul’s company departed, and came unto Cæsarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. 9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judæa a certain prophet, named Agabus.

May we all be where HE Wants and take our place in the battle. and Yes no titles.. we are to be servants and minister as HE leads with the Authority He has given us in the position He has called us to I believe.
In Christ.
A daughter of the KING...
Frannie


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Frannie

 2019/4/24 15:19Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1075
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


The twelve apostles of the Lamb, these foundation men are apostles to the WHOLE BODY of Christ.

My observations
1. true prophets and apostles today do not have the scope of authority the foundational have now.
2. true prophets and apostles today do not have the whole Church as their sheep.
3. True prophets and apostles today are not adding or subtracting from the foundations laid by the first twelve.

True prophets and apostles today "build upon" the foundations.
Their scope, authority, persons required to submit under them and their tasks reside within the range of "non-foundational prophets and apostles".

I believe it is a categorical mistake to compare non-foundational apostles with foundational one in the arena of scope, authority, range of ministry and tasks.
If you do, the only conclusion reasonable is "all these apostles are false" But why I ask?
1. Because they don't speak to the whole church
2. Because they don't have authority over the whole church
3. Because they are not supposed to be laying a new foundation for the Church.

It is possible the apostle today has a range of ministry, a flock of a certain number and a scope and task set forth by God that is limited in comparison to the foundational apostles?
My answer is yes.

I realize our Church PC demands we don't use titles; Paul was not shy about using his title over and over again.
I don't see why another godly man would not do the same to those to whom he ministers?
Instead of defaulting to "he just wants to be a big-shot with a big-title", instead of guessing at his mind and heart, find out what he really is doing with his gifts.

You'll notice some will say "I know this prophet" or "I know of this apostle", but is that prophet or apostle attempting to be foundational or is he attempting to fulfill his calling and task whatever level God has instructed him?

All I am saying is if titles are not important, then using that title cannot be more important or less, it's just a point of reference to God's calling.
Humility or lack thereof has no bearing on the use of the title. This same axiom can be used for Pastor or Teacher.
We make no bones at all about Pastor or Teacher, prophet or apostle should be no different.


_________________
Marvin

 2019/4/24 16:04Profile





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