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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Are These Christian Bloggers Tearing Down the Body of Christ? by Greg Gordon

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ADisciple
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 Re:

Frank, you said, "Hi Travis, it comes from Greg along with a rejection of sola scriptura. He has been rebuked by men like Ron Bailey and Allan Halton and Jose Munez, leader of Jesus Crew, himself an ex Catholic like me........bro Frank"

"Rebuked," at least for my part, is not the right word to describe the reaction to what Greg Gordon is embracing. It is more a strong plea to Greg to listen to what an increasing number of well-grounded brethren are saying to him. They are brethren who are alarmed at what the founder of Sermonindex is propagating these days. And personally, I have not felt anything said to him was out of a critical spirit, but rather out of love.

Allan Halton


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Allan Halton

 2019/4/12 16:18Profile
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Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

How do you define the body of the Messiah


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Dominic Shiells

 2019/4/12 17:23Profile









 Re:

HI Allan, I withdraw your name from the rebuke part, although clearly Ron Bailey and bro Jose were rebuking him. Rebuke to me is something that comes when one chooses to publicly call someone to account over an extreme error. Some may not consider it extreme error to pray to saints, or disqualifying, but I would have to seriously consider the claim of anyone who says they are a Christian and prays to Mary and the saints, or anyone who would tell them it is within the pale of orthodoxy. I will admit this is not new, it goes back to at least the 90s when a document was signed by Evangelicals agreeing not to proselytize Catholics..........bro Frank

 2019/4/12 21:16
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 Re:

Deleted for the time being.

Blessings.


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David Winter

 2019/4/12 22:13Profile









 Re:

David, Greg wrote the book you are talking about. There is a fundamental issue here of the foundations of the Catholic church, vast error beyond compare, and the hierarchal system of leadership perfected by the Roman Catholics. Here is a quote from one of the comments by Ron Bailey.......

" but the view you are propounding here is deeply in error and you do a disservice to all who trust your your judgement. Sermonindex has a wide reach and influence. I plead with you to take this book out of circulation.
I think you know me well enough that to confront publicly in this way it not my usual mode of operation but Ignatius poisoned the minds of generations who believed he was speaking truth and it is a source of deep distress to me to think that yet another generation will be subject to the same fate."

I agree with bro Ron on this. Greg later commented that those churches and groups mentioned in the Pilgrim Church were riddled with error. So, Ignatius and the so called church fathers are promoted, while the groups that stood against the Catholic church and were martyred for it are defamed. From Greg.........

"Essentially once I researched those splinter groups that the Pilgrim Church and Torch and Testimony or the Trail of Blood books explemify, I found these groups to be ridden with false teachers and strange ideas. Sadly it seems in our zeal to find an "un-broken" lineage of remnant or true ones we find ourselves mixing in the wrong with the right."

Here we have a defense of infant baptism, Greg writes....

"Towards infant baptism of course a child cannot crawl up and get in the tub. The believing (repenting) parents must do so. In the end in early church tradition the child renews his baptism vows (owns them) when he is older. This works well with Acts 2:38 the promise being for the "children."

And here we have Greg commenting on praying to the dead and to Mary......

"Early liturgies of the church included phrases asking God to help us, through the intercesisons of Mary and all the other saints. To me this is not disqualifying. Of course there are extremes and those who pray to Mary in a wrong way. Do you know how charismatic catholics pray? Is it possible they have corrected the extremes and are more balanced in this area?”

Is there a right way to pray to Mary? So you see my concerns with these issues? Now I will agree, in this day and age I am "extreme." I do not consider Catholics, in general, my brothers. I know that Chan and Bill Johnson and Rick Warren and Copeland and Benny Hinn do, they embrace the Pope. I cannot help that. But I can be dismayed by this slide back to Rome or the the Orthodox Church..........bro Frank

 2019/4/12 22:45
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 Re:

Im in the midst of charging my phone which I'm using and trying to read in between and I need to go back over that thread it seems.

I'll try and get back to you. Thanks.


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David Winter

 2019/4/12 22:52Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I agree with bro Ron on this. Greg later commented that those churches and groups mentioned in the Pilgrim Church were riddled with error. So, Ignatius and the so called church fathers are promoted, while the groups that stood against the Catholic church and were martyred for it are defamed. From Greg.........



Saints,

I have been on a road trip with the family so I did not have time to really sit down or try and engage this forum thread. I would firstly recommend anyone who are questioning anything written in this thread to consider to see and read the short ebook I put together on St. Ignatius: https://www.amazon.com/Early-Church-Father-Ignatius-Antioch-ebook/dp/B07N3TFJBW/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=greg+gordon&qid=1555123882&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Secondly, I have read alot of accusations towards myself but really what exactly are the questions you would like answered?

Above is a quote by brother Frank and it is polorazing the early church fathers versus any martyred persecuted group. Unfortunately this makes no sense as the early church fathers were themselves many of them martyrs (we recall of St. Polycarp) and the Entire Church (one name for it was "Catholic") was heavily persecuted for the first 300 years of its existence by the Roman Empire.

There were a few small sects that were not in-line with the Apostles traditons and teachings. Yet any martyrdom on either side was done by the Roman government.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2019/4/12 22:56Profile









 Re:

Bro Greg, first of all it is not an accusation. If you write and make statements, you are accountable for them. I will quote you verbatim , one issue at a time, and you can share what you mean. I will respond fist to what you wrote....

""Essentially once I researched those splinter groups that the Pilgrim Church and Torch and Testimony or the Trail of Blood books explemify, I found these groups to be ridden with false teachers and strange ideas. Sadly it seems in our zeal to find an "un-broken" lineage of remnant or true ones we find ourselves mixing in the wrong with the right."

The groups mentioned in the Pilgrim Church were riddled with false teachers and strange ideas? Was that not the reason given for hunting them down and killing them? And your research must have been quite limited as most of these groups writings were burned and destroyed by the Catholic church, indeed to the extent that we can gleam anything at all about them, we gleam it from their detractors, heavily invested in justifying the fact that they hunted down and burned these people alive.

You say for 300 years the entire church was heavily persecuted. Yet in the two main severe persecutions one at the beginning of the third century and the other at the end of the third century and into the fourth were essentially split into two groups. One group capitulating and the other being killed. The catholics and the donatists comprising the second great persecution under Diocletian just prior to Constantine. Can you tell me bro Greg, after the Romans embraced Christianity under Constantine, who killed the millions of martyrs for the following 1300 years? ....bro Frank

 2019/4/13 1:34
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 Re:

It is amazing to me how a post about "tearing down the body of Christ" has led to so much dissension.

A parable.

Five men saw a straight stick. They studied it, embraced it and KNEW from that what a straight stick is.

The same five men saw a crooked stick, and though they're personalities and vessels differed they were all in complete agreement that what was before them was indeed a crooked stick.

The disharmony in this forum isnt a "problem", in the way the word is used today. It is a crushing cornerstone that should prompt us to ask if any of this is real...if any of us actually know, if we are speaking from a place that can tell of Christ in a definitive solid way. Or maybe (and Im willing to bet my bottom dollar) if he is reduced to doctrine and dogma that serves our purposes and conforms to our little worlds. You speak of catholics and christians as if God even slightly sees the difference...He who sees the hearts and the souls of EVERY man in TRUTH without respect of persons.

How many men on this forum are just tombs filled with dead mens bones (ravenhill, reidhead, ignatius, etc.) rather then the Life of Christ.

Shame on you all. Youre disharmonious thought bears witness against you. Anyone who has definitely seen a straight stick can tell you are not speaking from a place of knowing and finality but in speculation and desires of the heart.

Forget what you have embraced and seek the Truth!!

Shame on you.


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Tyler

 2019/4/13 1:39Profile
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Quote:
You say for 300 years the entire church was heavily persecuted. Yet in the two main severe persecutions one at the beginning of the third century and the other at the end of the third century and into the fourth were essentially split into two groups. One group capitulating and the other being killed. The catholics and the donatists comprising the second great persecution under Diocletian just prior to Constantine. Can you tell me bro Greg, after the Romans embraced Christianity under Constantine, who killed the millions of martyrs for the following 1300 years? .



Brother frank, it seems no answer I give will suffice so I am going to try and take a break from trying to work this out with you. Your question really is very complex and there is not simple answer. Of course the majority of martyrdoms in christianity have been orthodox christians being killed by muslims in the last 100 years. Anyone who follows open doors, or VOM will understand this. So again I do not see church history clearly as catholics killing true believers, of course there was abuse of power in certain points that ended in martyrdoms. This also happened with other churches that took control of country states. It is something I am still understanding and grasping fully.

Quote:
How many men on this forum are just tombs filled with dead mens bones (ravenhill, reidhead, ignatius, etc.) rather then the Life of Christ.



Dear brother, I do understand what you are writing and feeling but there is also place for honest questions and struggles people have over things in relation to the Church.

From the original article here is a quote that we can all follow and consider more in this thread:

St. Polycarp, the second-century bishop of Smyrna, says, "Not quickly crediting an evil report against any one, not severe in judgment, as knowing that we are all under a debt of sin. If then we entreat the Lord to forgive us, we ought also ourselves to forgive; for we are before the eyes of our Lord and God."



Let us all have more mercy on each other. More forgiveness, more grace and kindness. We all really see just in part.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2019/4/13 4:12Profile





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