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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : SURPRISE...SURPRISE!!!

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CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 252
Cambodia

 Re:

Fletcher, I know you know this verse, but....:)

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him.
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. - Colossians 1:15-18

Jesus is the grace of God given to men (for salvation, relationship, thanksgiving and worship). but ultimately for the praise of the glory of His grace in Jesus, that grace Is Jesus, to be worshipped, adored and enjoyed by millions, billions of saints and angels forever.


_________________
Robert

 2018/12/8 11:05Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1058
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Robert

Thanks for sharing:)
And as you might imagine, I have a totally different take on Colossians 1
as well as why God created man etc,...
That’s ok with me, that we see it differently and have different understandings-
Blessings:)


_________________
Fletcher

 2018/12/8 12:42Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1977
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Robert, you wrote:

Quote:
I can tell you that the stated purpose of creation is for Jesus to be supreme in all things and for God's grace towards sinners to be praised for eternity. Both those purposes required sin. So in a real sense, sin was allowed, circumstances were created and God had a plan for it all so that Jesus on the cross could occur to the praise of the glory of His grace.

We have to try to look at things from God's perspective and really strive not to view things from our own extremely limited wisdom and understanding. You are probably much better at that than I am, but on this issue, I'm not ashamed to say that God is sovereign over all, even over the evil acts of men, not because it gives me comfort or joy in believing that, but solely because I see it everywhere in Scripture.



From what I understand, your view says that God’s ultimate aim in creating man was to glorify Himself through the salvation of some and the destruction/damnation of most. When it comes to those who are “non-elect” or “reprobate,” your view says that God prioritizes the glorification of Himself through their damnation in hell. By contrast, our view sees God preferring to save all sinners; we see Him going to such great lengths to provide that opportunity to all. We see Him humbling Himself and dying for His very enemies, all of them. But when it comes to the “non-elect," your view sees God preferring to step on His enemies instead of allowing them to step on Him in order to save them. Big difference indeed.


_________________
Oracio

 2018/12/11 0:21Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1844


 Re: My purpose...




"From what I understand, your view says that God’s ultimate aim in creating man was to glorify Himself through the salvation of some and the destruction/damnation of most. When it comes to those who are “non-elect” or “reprobate,” your view says that God prioritizes the glorification of Himself through their damnation in hell. By contrast, our view sees God preferring to save all sinners; we see Him going to such great lengths to provide that opportunity to all. We see Him humbling Himself and dying for His very enemies, all of them. But when it comes to the “non-elect," your view sees God preferring to step on His enemies instead of allowing them to step on Him in order to save them. Big difference indeed."

--------------

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.
Romans 9:17

This verse shows, that God is not unjust in rejecting others of equal condition with the elect; for the proof of which, he cites a testimony out of Exodus 9:16. This verse must be joined with Romans 9:14.

God forbid; for the Scripture saith, i.e. God saith in the Scripture:

Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up; i.e. I have created or promoted thee to be king in Egypt. Or, (as some), I have raised or stirred thee up to oppress my people. Or, I have hardened thee, as it follows in the next verse, and given thee up to thy own rebellious and obstinate mind.

That I might show my power in thee, &c.: I have done what I have done for this very end, that the whole world may ring of my power and glory. And this shows, that it is not unjust in God to reject sinners of the children of men, because thereby he furthers his own glory. For this end all things are made, and all things are accordingly ordered and disposed, Proverbs 16:4. - M. Poole

 2018/12/11 6:56Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 252
Cambodia

 Re:

Orancio,

It would probably be better to say that we both have a view hopefully based on a sincere understanding of Scriptures. It isn't a view of God that should be separated from God's own declaration of Himself and nothing more or less.

God does get glory when both His mercy and His justice are displayed. So, there is glory in mercy to sinners and there is a kind of glory in the punishment of sinners. Revelation and the Psalms most clearly say that, not me. I'm sure you know the passages that say that explicitly and very clearly so I won't restate them here. that is just a Biblical fact. So, I'm hoping you believe that as well and your criticism is misunderstood on my part.

That is why the cross is such a glorious display of God. It is a consummation of God's love, mercy, grace, Holiness, justice all intersecting at the cross and in the person of Jesus. At the cross, God's love and mercy to sinful men are totally declared while at the same time
God's justice and holiness are vindicated because the sins He previously passed over are dealt with. You know that from Scripture too.


God loves the world and desires that all men repent and turn to Him and trust in His Son. Virtually all the people who share the views I've tried to express believe that. This thread has not been an attempt to deal with that. God's Spirit strives with the conscience of men in many varied ways to turn them back to Him. The Bible says that. This is the common grace of God reaching out to sinners. The conscience is God's gift to all men to steer them by the Spirit's striving.

The view I think I share with others much more spiritual than me is that God freely offers the Gospel in great love to many and whosoever wants to believe in Jesus may repent and believe and they shall be saved. In love, He additionally freely displays His glory in all that He has made and in all the blessings He bestows with the express intention that mankind would worship Him. The problem is man. He to a man refuses God's gracious outreaches and strivings. That is what Romans 1 says.

God is lovingly and mercifully gracious to mankind in a myriad of ways. HE gives families, food, rain, happiness of heart and health to men. He gives men life and doesn't destroy them at the first sin. He is patient and long suffering in the hopes that His kindness would turn men to repentance.

Here's the problem. Mankind rejects God's self declaration, His kindness, His mercy, His love. Every day. That rejection is man's fault. Not God's. If God sends a man to Hell it is to punish that man for His sins.

Does that rejection by man of God's manifold and daily grace stop God from having a people that would worship and praise Himself through Jesus which is the point of creation as I read Colossians 1, Absolutely not. God goes a step further. In spite of evil mankinds' rejection of God's daily goodness, God mercifully, graciously and in extravagant love saves some by overcoming their rebellion, unwillingness, hostility and sinful rejection by giving them new life and His Spirit.

So, God daily and in great love grants man opportunities daily to turn to Him. He sent His Son in great love to die for sin so that whosoever would turn to Him might have life. None want that offer because their hearts are evil and they desire the darkness. So, in spite of God's outreach in general revelation and in daily mercy and in the general offer of the Gospel which all are amazing acts of mercy and loving kindness, God also, then, mercifully secures a people for His glory who in spite of their rebellion, God makes them alive in His Son by effectively giving them new birth and changing their wants, desires, affections and wills so that they will desire Him and come to Him.

I don't know why He doesn't do that for all men. I don't know why He did that for me. However, as to all who don't receive that grace, they had previously received so much amazing grace in daily revelation, daily patience and long suffering, daily gifts of love and kindness, and the free loving offer of the Gospel. God cannot be indicted in any way for a lack of grace to all. God is unbelievably gracious in daily and glorious mercy and love to men. To suggest that going further and being merciful to an undeserving people that He chooses for Himself makes God look unloving is a very strange read and understanding of all that.

When God's grace in every man's life is revealed in that day, no one will fault God for not saving all. He daily reaches out to men and they in their sinful natures daily reject the lover of their souls. That is the great indictment. I think we will all one day be completely shocked by the exceeding sinfulness of sin and of sinful man. Right now we see a lot of God's grace in the life of men that restrains their true self. When the day of ultimate revelation comes, we will see clearly that God has been so very good and man has been very evil.

I think you know this is the position of those who share my view so I'm not sure why your gross recasting of the position is done.

It has now gotten to the point in the back and forth that people are angry at me so I'm bowing out. Just let me add that some of you guys really do mischaracterize and conflate the views of the sovereign grace believer. It is a shame that when we disagree that there is an attempt to demonize the opposition and then try to make their position irrelevant or heretical. There are some extremely Godly saints on whose shoulders your faith stands that share in substantial measure what I have shared. Recognizing that doesn't make you wrong, it just avoids you making them into believers and teachers in the doctrines of demons.














_________________
Robert

 2018/12/11 7:11Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1977
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

-


_________________
Oracio

 2018/12/13 2:21Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1977
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Robert, you wrote:

Quote:
It has now gotten to the point in the back and forth that people are angry at me so I'm bowing out. Just let me add that some of you guys really do mischaracterize and conflate the views of the sovereign grace believer. It is a shame that when we disagree that there is an attempt to demonize the opposition and then try to make their position irrelevant or heretical. There are some extremely Godly saints on whose shoulders your faith stands that share in substantial measure what I have shared. Recognizing that doesn't make you wrong, it just avoids you making them into believers and teachers in the doctrines of demons.



I’m not angry at you for sharing your view despite our differences and disagreements.

While I do understand that we must be careful not to argue in a spiteful or fleshly manner here, I don’t believe there’s anything wrong per se with being a bit “polemical” at times in our discussions. In some of your previous posts directed toward some of us, you have not held back in stating how you feel about our view and how much you disagree with it. You’ve plainly stated that our view is mainly and merely human and philosophical (i.e. man-centered instead of God-centered). You’ve made it quite clear that you believe we don’t give enough credit or due consideration to the work of the Spirit in man’s salvation as well as in other areas of theology.

I personally have not called your view heretical or a doctrine of demons; I admit I have expressed some concerns about some things being taught or misunderstood which can mislead others (such as teaching that God is the author of sin, and unsaved people getting the impression that they can only wait passively for God to save them if they are elect).

The only time I addressed you personally instead of your views is when I felt you weren’t being completely honest about being open to any other views which disagree with yours.

Towards reformed preachers of the past, I do not deny that God has used some mightily and I’m grateful for their contribution in Christ’s Body. But I would not say that my faith stands on their shoulders. I could equally point to some who’ve held our view whom God also raised up and used mightily but I wouldn’t say mine or your faith stands on their shoulders either.

Towards mischaracterizing and conflating your view, I have sought to honestly share what my understanding of your view is, myself having held it for a while as a newer believer and having studied it quite a bit throughout my walk. I know I have made some strong-sounding statements which reveal how and why I disagree with your view. But again, I think I was simply being a bit polemical in expressing why I disagree with your view. I believe sometimes it’s ok to be a bit “challenging” toward one another; I believe it’s part of iron sharpening iron.

I know I sometimes tend to be a bit forthright and blunt with folk, and I admit I have to be careful sometimes not to be too harsh with my words. If you feel I was too harsh in anything specific I stated, please feel free to let me know and I will sincerely consider and pray about it. Also, if I have mischaracterized and conflated a specific aspect of your views, please do also let me know if you are led, so I can sincerely consider that as well. Thanks.


_________________
Oracio

 2018/12/13 2:46Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1844


 Re: "I will do this thing..."


Oracio says,


"In other words, it is one thing for God to allow or permit evil actions and/or evil decisions to be made while being in complete control, and to use those same actions to accomplish His ultimate plans or purposes, and it is quite another for God to “do” or “perform” those evil actions Himself."

___________________

Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah, and if that was not enough, I would have given you even more.

Why then have you despised the command of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife as your own, for you have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’

This is what the LORD says: ‘I will raise up adversity against you from your own house. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to another, and he will lie with them in broad daylight. You have acted in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

David's Loss and Repentance

Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.”

“The LORD has taken away your sin,” Nathan replied. “You will not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have treated the LORD with utter contempt, the son born to you will surely die.”

After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. David pleaded with God for the boy. He fasted and went into his house and spent the night lying in sackclothc on the ground. The elders of his household stood beside him to help him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat anything with them.

On the seventh day the child died.

2 Samuel 12:7-18

_____________

"I" in these verses is none other than God Himself.

 2018/12/16 6:38Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1977
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Thanks savannah. If you are referring to God taking David's child, I would not call that committing an evil act considering that God alone has the prerogative to take a life whether early on or later on in life. We are all destined to die in one form or another, sooner or later.

If you are referring to God raising up Absalom to persecute and shame David as a judgment, it goes back to what I mentioned earlier about God exploiting the evil intentions of men to bring about His ultimate purposes.

Earlier you agreed with me that God is not the author of sin. I’m curious, have you since changed your mind about it after looking further into it?

I know of one reformed theologian who has adamantly stated that God sometimes commands men to commit sin (particularly the sin of adultery) to fulfill His sovereign decree or purpose. I hope you would not agree with him.


_________________
Oracio

 2018/12/16 10:56Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1844


 Re: God is God



I hold to the truth. That being, that God cannot sin. It is an impossibility.

I hope that suffices to answer your question whether I have changed my mind.

My question to you:

If a man impregnates a virgin he is not married to, and the father of that 13 year old virgin, who (the father) is also a judge, presses charges against the man, and presides as judge over the case, and sentences that child in the womb to be aborted, would that father and judge be guilty of committing sin?




 2018/12/16 11:24Profile





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