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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : SURPRISE...SURPRISE!!!

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Joined: 2017/2/12
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Cambodia

 Re:

Sure Fletcher,

Jesus desired that they, Jerusalem, would repent. Jerusalem, by the exercise of their own will would not. Seems like God is thwarted. Yet, at the same time, it is stated in other Scripture that it was God's predetermined plan and intention that Israel be hardened so that He would extend grace to the Gentiles to be brought in. Thus, God desired all Israel repent but they would not ( not a surprise to God ) and by fulfilling their will, He fulfilled His will to bless the Gentiles through their disobedience. So God uses man's disobedience even to His apparent disappointment to accomplish a greater purpose to His pleasure.


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Robert

 2018/12/8 6:12Profile
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 Re:

😳 ok just to be clear...
either you’re saying God predetermined that Israel wouldn’t repent because He had hardened them but He openly and publicly shamed them for doing something He had predestined them not to do?
Or you’re possibly saying that mans will prevented Gods will/desire from being performed but that didn’t surprise God because He was gonna use either response man gave Him to advantage His plan?
Actually it seems you’re saying both simultaneously...
Or perhaps you mean something else?


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Fletcher

 2018/12/8 6:46Profile
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 Re:

What I think God says is that what man intends for evil, which evil God hates, God INTENDS or means or plans for good.

For example, in the OT, God wants Joseph to save Israel from a famine and to get Israel to live in Egypt where they will be enslaved for 400 years, all so that He can deliver them by Moses to the promised land. So, God has Joseph delivered to Egypt by his brothers evil act performed by them because they are jealous of Joseph's statements that God is going to have Joseph rule over them. Where did Joseph get that idea? From a dream from God. Did God know that if He gave Joseph that dream that Joseph would tell his brothers who then would be jealous and who would then sell Joseph into slavery? Absolutely, that is why God gave Joseph the dream. God moved in various ways during that whole process superintending over the evil acts of Joseph's family, hating that sin, but intending it to happen so that God could ultimately save Israel from Pharaoh and take them to the promised land.

Here's an even more poignant example. God wants to save sinful men. God abominates when someone lets the guilty go free. Two desires in apparent conflict. Solution. The cross. Actors and Culprits....Satan and men. Over their sinful desires and acts, a Sovereign God arranges for it all to happen yet without sin. Thankfully God's plan happens without fail even though men spiritually fail in the process. I'll ask you, was God's plan for men to sin in crucifying Jesus predetermined, that is, was it bound by God's decree to happen or was it only a possibility or potential?


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Robert

 2018/12/8 7:07Profile
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 Re:

Ahhh ok,
Now that helps me understand where you’re coming from-
I suppose we simply see it differently... (for me) there is a difference between potentials and literals whereas you seem to hold that when/if something happens God Himself must have willed it into being meaning that the only potentially is the literal outcome that was predetermined by God... is that a fair characterization of your position?

In any case I appreciate your candor:)


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Fletcher

 2018/12/8 7:20Profile
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 Re:

Was the predetermined plan of God to have evil men crucify His Son a possibility or potential?

Fletcher, maybe this helps. God can foreknow how sinful men will act given a particular set of circumstances. Is God in the wrong if He without any sin on His part arranges those circumstances that in fact bring about acts of sinful men that accomplish His greater purposes? He didn't force them or compel them to act on their own sinful impulses. he merely put them in situations where those sinful impulses were able to expose and express themselves. I think your answer would be that He would not do that. I think Scripture says very clearly that He does do that.

We know that the Holy Spirit led Jesus into the desert to be tempted. God did not tempt Jesus, but He led Jesus to the situation of temptation so as to test him. In this way, God arranges a circumstance or situation but it is Satan that does the tempting. God wanted to test Jesus for his good and Satan wanted to tempt Jesus unto evil. God arranged. Satan did the evil.


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Robert

 2018/12/8 7:23Profile
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 Re:

(For me) God is sovereign over His plan and only His plan, He is omniscient only regarding His plan, however He is fully aware of the potential for man to act apart from His will- so since there was a potential for man to literally fall, God provided a means of restoration before the foundation of the world. Much like a father, knowing the potential for a fall, would place a life jacket on his children before they ever even got into the boat.... not because he absolutely knew they would or because he caused them to fall out of the boat but simply being aware of the potential, he makes a provision to preserve out of love:)
Now each child has to remain or abide in the lifejacket in order to benefit from its ability to save them. Again knowing that the restrictive aspect of the lifejacket could possibly result in some or all the children putting them off, he prepares and encourages each child according to their understanding and ability to keep it on, even to the point of disciplining those whom attempt to put it off. However if they persist in their folly in spite of His admonition then He will not force them to keep it on whereby the benefits that He Himself paid for performed, predetermined, predestined etc... in regards to his children’s safety are forfeited:(


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Fletcher

 2018/12/8 7:50Profile
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 Re:

So to be clear-
God Himself is the sole proprietor of salvation in that He does it to/for mankind thru Christ without any participation from the recipients- however He gives each the choice wether or not they submit to His provision and thereby abide in its benefits or reject it. He even goes so far so as to provide the ways and means (faith - grace) to abide in His promise... but He does not (in my understanding) thwart His own justice nor undermine His holiness by requiring them to abide.

Again not, in any way seeking debate, rather hoping to understand each other’s position of faith by sharing it:)


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Fletcher

 2018/12/8 8:02Profile
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 Re:

Thanks Fletcher, I was typing an edit to my original post by the time I saw your answer.

This issue has been debated for centuries. The question takes us back to God's purpose in creating man. I've always struggled to understand why God put the tree of good and evil in the Garden in the first place and after putting it there, why did He let Satan into the Garden? It's clear that God knew what Satan would do and He knew what Eve and Adam would ultimately do. I know the pat answers that people try to suggest to prop up their views of God, man and God's plans. So much misery and suffering might have been avoided if God had not put the tree there or allowed Satan to tempt. Yet, knowing all that, God arranged a tree in a garden and an encounter with pure evil that would dramatically impact the creation for thousands of years and result in the damnation of billions. No matter which viewpoint we have on the sovereignty of God in man's actions, with regard to His own actions, God had the prerogative, power and freedom not to put the tree in the Garden or allow Satan there as well in the first place. At the end, we just don't know. I can tell you that the stated purpose of creation is for Jesus to be supreme in all things and for God's grace towards sinners to be praised for eternity. Both those purposes required sin. So in a real sense, sin was allowed, circumstances were created and God had a plan for it all so that Jesus on the cross could occur to the praise of the glory of His grace.

We have to try to look at things from God's perspective and really strive not to view things from our own extremely limited wisdom and understanding. You are probably much better at that than I am, but on this issue, I'm not ashamed to say that God is sovereign over all, even over the evil acts of men, not because it gives me comfort or joy in believing that, but solely because I see it everywhere in Scripture.


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Robert

 2018/12/8 8:11Profile
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 Re:

Ha! Very good brother- for you have fleshed out where the difference is...
(For me) the purpose of God creating man was first and foremost because He wanted fellowship,... offspring:)
I see this as such, not limited to but including, in the patterns prophetically displayed in scripture as well as the functioning of the body, what we will spend eternity doing with Him in heaven, why the OT sacrifices were made, the gospel itself, etc....
And yes we most certainly agree that to (at least attempt) view things from His perspective and purpose is essential:)

In any case dear brother, thank you for sharing your faith and understanding with me:)
Blessings to you~


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Fletcher

 2018/12/8 8:33Profile
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 Re: The Cross of the Lord Jesus



Ex. 40:10 –
……and the altar shall be most holy.


The cross of the Lord Jesus is a most holy altar where Jesus offered Himself as the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world. There He also offered Himself as the burnt offering, meal offering and peace offering which are fire-offerings of sweet fragrance to God.


Please note:

John 12:31-33 –
"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

John 10:15,17-18 –
………I lay down My life for the sheep.
No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.

John 19:30,33 –
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit……
So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.

Heb. 12:2 –
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Just as Joseph told his brothers:

Gen. 50:20 –
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.


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Jade

 2018/12/8 9:55Profile





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