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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : SURPRISE...SURPRISE!!!

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Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1947
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Robert, you wrote:

Quote:
Hi Oracio. I think you are saying that there was a chance men would not crucify His Son because free will by definition demands a chance for the opposite to happen.



God can know all future possibilities and decide on which ones to allow to come to pass in the end, according to His sovereign purposes. And God can know beforehand that certain decisions will be made without Him making those decisions Himself, and He can use those decisions to accomplish His purposes. The problem I see with your view is that you seem to imply that men had to crucify Christ because God “performed” and “did” it (in the words of John Piper’s article which you seem to endorse in this thread), apart from those evil men’s free will decisions. Again, that would implicate God imo.

Quote:
If you say that it is only foreknowledge then the word “plan” simply does not work.



I never said it was “only” foreknowledge. Our view acknowledges that God is in complete control of all events and decisions and that He does “plan” them in the sense of choosing to allow them to come to pass.

There’s a big difference between God being in control of all human decisions and Him meticulously controlling all human decisions. The first allows for real human accountability and responsibility while the latter seems to implicate God and contradict much of Scripture imo.

Quote:
You can’t or shouldn’t redefine a word to meet your preferred understanding of God’s decrees that something happen without chance that it won’t…..I suggest you are slanting obvious meanings of words to support a philosophy, not a theology.



I’d encourage you to look up the English word “plan” to see if there are not different meanings, nuances or uses of it. It seems you may not be open to that based on certain presuppositions you bring to certain pertinent texts.

Quote:
And please remember that men are still doing the choosing and acting of sin as I argue the Scripturre says.



Right, but again, according to Piper’s view (which you seem to be defending here), men are doing the choosing and acting of sin because God “performs,” “does” or “works” it in them, not because they use their free will or self-determination. According to Piper and you, there is no such thing as self-determination or human autonomy as we understand it in terms of the use of free will.

When it comes to the term “free will,” I’ve found that many from your camp seek to redefine it to mean something other than the common understanding of it, in order to try to make it fit their philosophy. Others flat out deny any type of free will altogether.


_________________
Oracio

 2018/12/5 21:00Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1947
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi savannah, you wrote:

Quote:
Oracio,

Your interpretation of Piper and I goes like this;

"He foreknew them because He “performed” and “did” them Himself. In other words, God knows every future event and human decision because He authors/performs/does every future event and human decision, including every evil act committed."


I am not saying that, nor is Piper.

Piper and I agree. You've misunderstood Piper.

God performing and doing is not equal to, as you say,"...He “performed” and “did” them Himself."

God accomplishes His own purpose(s), which may at times be secret or hidden temporarily, but His purpose(s) is/are always good and perfect.

Neither I nor Piper, nor any other son of God in the family of God would indict God with the committal of an evil act, or with the accusation of being guilty of sin. For such is an impossibility. God Himself cannot sin.

I never thought that anyone would or could get the impression that anything of the sort was being said by Piper or myself.

God is Good
God is Holy
God is Just
God is Love
God is God

No disagreements there!


Well I'm glad to hear that that is your position but I can't honestly say it's Piper's. I do know that some, quite several, from your camp believe that God is in fact the author of sin. I can share with you a debate on YouTube wherein two from your camp seek to defend that position. As a matter of fact I’ll share names here without sharing the link. It’s a debate involving Sonny Hernandez and Leighton Flowers.

Here’s another quote from one of Piper’s sermons which I also found to be disturbing:

Quote:
Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).

This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV).


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Oracio

 2018/12/5 21:23Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 186
Cambodia

 Re:

Hi Oracio,

You continue to say that the position of John Piper and others who agree with Him is that God is performing the evil act in spite of continual insistence we aren’t saying that. I’m perplexed. Second,
The word “plan” in the Greek Bible usage means “purpose”. Thus, Acts 2:23 could be written to say that God predetermined and purposed His Son to be crucified through the evil acts of men. How He brings about His decided will and purpose is by evil man’s acts and decisions and desires . He doesn’t react to men’s decisions though as some seem to hold . As you seem to state, He knows how men will react in certain situations so He uses all kinds of agents to arrange those and accomplish His purpose. Is that fair to say in your mind.?


_________________
Robert

 2018/12/6 3:21Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 4968
NC, USA

 Re:

Piper said: “This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even ***brought about***the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV- my emphasis.

Robert, why don’t you just explain what Piper actually means when he says God “brought about” Nazi brutality or the “sexual abuse of a young child.”

If Piper does not really mean what he is plainly stating, then he is exceedingly and inexcusably reckless in making such comments about God.


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Todd

 2018/12/6 7:20Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 186
Cambodia

 Re:

Todd. I honestly thought I did. Do you believe God “brought about” the death of His beloved Son? That He planned it, commanded it, decreed it and willed it? How you answer that, answers all.


_________________
Robert

 2018/12/6 7:51Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 4968
NC, USA

 Re:

You still haven’t explained what he (or you) means when he says God brings about the sexual abuse of young girls.

How you answer that [may] answer all.

ADD: Even if there is some explanation, isn’t there a better way of saying it? The optics are exceedingly bad as written.


_________________
Todd

 2018/12/6 9:15Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1947
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Robert, you wrote:

Quote:
You continue to say that the position of John Piper and others who agree with Him is that God is performing the evil act in spite of continual insistence we aren’t saying that. I’m perplexed.



It was Piper who used the words “performs,” “does,” and “work” in reference to God foreknowing every future event and human decision. Here again are Piper’s own words:

“God doesn’t just predict; he does what he predicts.”

“God knows the future, because he performs the future. He is never surprised, because he is not surprised at his own work.”

“What God knows is what God will do.”

That type of language is different from saying that God knows what free moral agents will choose to do of their own free will in each situation or circumstance. Piper seems to completely deny that concept and he seems to attribute every evil act and human decision ultimately to God. I know that that is an actual position among some “high” or “hyper” Calvinists. Piper calls himself a “7-point” Calvinist and many consider him to be a “high” Calvinist so I’m not too surprised by his wording in those quotes to be honest.

Quote:
Second, The word “plan” in the Greek Bible usage means “purpose”. Thus, Acts 2:23 could be written to say that God predetermined and purposed His Son to be crucified through the evil acts of men. How He brings about His decided will and purpose is by evil man’s acts and decisions and desires . He doesn’t react to men’s decisions though as some seem to hold . As you seem to state, He knows how men will react in certain situations so He uses all kinds of agents to arrange those and accomplish His purpose. Is that fair to say in your mind.?



Yeah, I did notice that the KJV uses the word “counsel” and the NKJV uses the word “purpose,” while other translations use the word “plan” there. I don’t have a problem with the word “plan” being used or referenced, provided that, when necessary, we explain what we mean by that and provided that our explanations are not seriously disturbing.

As to your explanation there, the only thing I may not fully agree with is this statement of yours:

Quote:
He doesn’t react to men’s decisions though as some seem to hold.



If you are referring to open theism then I agree. But in my view God does react (or “respond” may be a better word) to human decisions. That seems crystal clear throughout the biblical narrative. But again, if you simply mean that God is not surprised in the full sense of the word (because He does seem surprised and astonished at times in a certain way), then I agree. I believe God communicates to us how He feels about certain things in a way we can understand on our level, at times using anthropomorphic language.


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Oracio

 2018/12/6 10:22Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1947
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Todd wrote:

Quote:
If Piper does not really mean what he is plainly stating, then he is exceedingly and inexcusably reckless in making such comments about God.



Exactly. If he doesn't mean what we think he means based on those kinds of "plain" statements, he should not be so reckless or provocative and irresponsible in the choice of his wording imo. Unfortunately, I have an uneasy feeling that he does in fact mean what we think he means.


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Oracio

 2018/12/6 10:41Profile
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 478


 Re:

The way I understand the Bible, the reason there is evil in the world is because of the sinful choices of fallen men (and women) who are darkened in their thinking and affections. God kicked fallen humanity out of the protection and provision of the Garden of Eden shortly after our parents, Adam and Eve, fell from grace. We are now living in the world ruled by Satan. The Bible acknowledges that until Christ returns to this Earth, Satan rules over this world. We know that God does have some restraint on Satan which will be taken out of the way some time after the Antichrist shows up. And God is working in this world through the Church and the Holy Spirit to save lost souls and bring them into the kingdom of His dear Son. He also has a plan for Israel to save a remnant of them and also use them to bring about the destruction of Satan, Antichrist and the whole godless world system. But God is allowing evil to go on here because there are still souls (perhaps still not born) who are yet to be saved. Satan will win many battles here on this Earth but he will not win the war. God is giving time for sinful men to repent but usually they, being darkened in their understanding, mistake God's patience as His either His not existing or perhaps not caring which inflates man's pride and willfulness. But in the day of the Lord, God will bring them into judgement so that they will be without excuse and the proud and haughty will be brought down and they that fear the Lord will be exalted. God does allow everything that happens to happen but is being merciful and patient with men to give them time to repent. God is not the author of evil.

-Daniel

 2018/12/6 11:07Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 186
Cambodia

 Re:

Guys. We are really digging around the issue of a theology of suffering, especially why God wills suffering for His own children. He accomplishes His will often through responsible agents . But, he also often brings it about directly for example when He stirred the hearts of Israel’s enemies to attack, ravage and kill His own people, including women and children for correction or judgement. God opened the earth and swallowed entire Jewish families, children included, for the sins of Achan or of the leaders who rebelled against Moses. The children had no fault in that sin.

Todd, I have close family members who were repeatedly raped from the age of ten on for several years. I don’t speak of God’s sovereignty in suffering from a thirty thousand foot view.

Jesus endured suffering by no fault in order to make His obedience perfect and to be made complete. God gives at least 22 reasons in the NT for why He plans, purposes and wills suffering for His beloved children with 60-70 verses to explain those purposes.

The reason why I thought the example of Jesus would answer all, is that if the Father would purposefully plan and arrange for the crucifixtion iof His own Son and the pouring out of His wrath upon Him, then the temporal suffering of sinners could be seen with right “optics”.


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Robert

 2018/12/6 11:48Profile





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