SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : SURPRISE...SURPRISE!!!

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 Next Page )
PosterThread
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1947
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Thanks Robert for that clarification. Yeah, certain of your statements did come across as implicating God; this statement for example,

Quote:
So God plans for Pharoh’s sin, He gives the good and right command that
stirs the sinful pride in Pharoh’s heart and then, punishes Pharoh severely for the sin God excited through the command


I think we must be very careful in terms of saying things like, "God plans sin." I do think I understand what you're saying but to many it can come across as saying that God desires and intends sin as ideal. That's what Piper's article seems to clearly imply in his statements that God "performs" or "does" all things He foreknows.


_________________
Oracio

 2018/12/5 14:21Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1828


 Re: predetermined does not equal performed



"If God predetermined and "performed" such..."

Todd performed such things.

Even as all others perform the acts or deeds that they do.

Predetermined does not equal performed!

We have Job's life as a record written for our learning.

God predetermined prior to Satan performing the evil.

God pre-determined Christ's crucifixion prior to the hands of wicked men performing the evil deed. See Acts 2:23.

To speak against something you do not believe to be right or good does not negate any predetermining factor in the matter.

Especially considering that I do not know the outcome.



 2018/12/5 15:30Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 186
Cambodia

 Re:

Oracio, Don’t you think by Scripture that God planned the sin of men that they would crucify His Son?


_________________
Robert

 2018/12/5 15:53Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1947
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Robert, I’d say that God planned the crucifixion of His Son for the salvation of the world. I’d say He predestined to accomplish our salvation through permitting or allowing certain evil men to perform that heinous act for which they were fully held accountable and responsible.

In other words, I’d say that His ultimate divine decree/plan/purpose was to accomplish our salvation through the atoning death and resurrection of His Son. And I’d say He chose to accomplish that ultimate purpose through certain “secondary” means or causes which He permitted but didn’t Himself commit or “plan” in that sense. So I’d try to be very careful with my wording so as not to sound like I’m implicating God and thus possibly place an unnecessary stumbling block before others.

I think sometimes it's not sufficient for us to quote or refer to certain scriptures without a proper exegetical explanation of them, lest we seem to others to be implying or drawing certain unbiblical conclusions.


_________________
Oracio

 2018/12/5 16:37Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1947
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi savannah, you wrote:

Quote:
Todd performed such things.

Even as all others perform the acts or deeds that they do.

Predetermined does not equal performed!

We have Job's life as a record written for our learning.

God predetermined prior to Satan performing the evil.

God pre-determined Christ's crucifixion prior to the hands of wicked men performing the evil deed. See Acts 2:23.

To speak against something you do not believe to be right or good does not negate any predetermining factor in the matter.

Especially considering that I do not know the outcome.


That sounds like you disagree with the John Piper article you shared in your OP. I’ll share the main portion of it which I have in mind here again:

Quote:
So, now we get a window on to how God knows the future. He knows it because he plans it and does it. He knows it because he plans it and performs it. Similarly, in Jeremiah 1:12 the Lord said, “I am watching over my word to perform it.” God doesn’t just predict; he does what he predicts. Or Ezekiel 12:25, “For I am the Lord; I will speak the word that I will speak, and it will be performed. . . . I will speak the word and perform it, declares the Lord God.”

“God doesn’t just predict; he does what he predicts.”

In other words, God knows the future, because he performs the future. He is never surprised, because he is not surprised at his own work. Foreknowledge is not an awareness of what the fates will make happen. Foreknowledge is not an awareness of what random chance is going to bring about. Foreknowledge is not an awareness of what ultimate human autonomy is going to produce. There is no fate. There is no random chance. There is no ultimate human autonomy.

What God knows is what God will do. The future is not some kind of freewheeling reality separate from God’s will that he is trying to catch on to and adapt to. He knows the future because he plans the future, and he is never surprised by what he plans. - J. Piper



Again, Piper says God knows every future human decision because He “performs” and “does” it, because it is His own “work.” Do you now disagree with Piper and do you regret sharing the OP article?

Also, I want to point out that Piper seeks to caricature our position as a belief in "fate" or "random chance" or a "freewheeling reality separate from God's will." Nothing could be further from the truth from our perspective. The fact that God creates a world wherein He allows for humans to have a certain level of freedom of will does not equate to a world of "fate" or "random chance." In other words, the fact that humans make self-determining choices does not equate to "fate" or "random chance."


_________________
Oracio

 2018/12/5 18:52Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 186
Cambodia

 Re:

I’m confused by your language. He planned it but not in the sense of planning?? I’m not trying to be condescending but I think that is what you said. The Scripture is that evil men crucified His Son according to the predetermined plan of God. That’s pretty clear. Not my interpretation



_________________
Robert

 2018/12/5 19:39Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1947
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Robert, you wrote:

Quote:
I’m confused by your language. He planned it but not in the sense of planning?? I’m not trying to be condescending but I think that is what you said. The Scripture is that evil men crucified His Son according to the predetermined plan of God. That’s pretty clear. Not my interpretation



Fair enough, I'll try to explain as well. The word "plan" can have different meanings or connotations, cannot it not?

For example, in one sense we can say that God's "ideal" plan for sex was for it to be enjoyed within marriage between one man and one woman for life. God's ideal plan regarding sex was that there would be no fornication or adultery. In that sense God did not "plan" for fornication and adultery, otherwise we'd have to say that God approves of such and we know that that is absurd according to the scriptures.

In another sense, we can also say that it was God's "predetermined plan" for there to be fornication and adultery in the sense of Him allowing or permitting there to be such sins in this world of fallen, yet free moral agents.

I'll give another example from Scripture. It was not God's "ideal plan" for Adam and Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit and to plunge the world in the mess we've been in since. Again, otherwise we'd have to say that God approved of Adam's sin which again, would be ridiculous.

But in another sense God did "plan" for the fall in the sense of Him permitting it in accordance with His ultimate purposes.

Hope that helps.




_________________
Oracio

 2018/12/5 20:00Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 186
Cambodia

 Re:

Hi Oracio. I think you are saying that there was a chance men would not crucify His Son because free will by definition demands a chance for the opposite to happen. If you say that it is only foreknowledge then the word “plan” simply does not work. You can’t or shouldn’t redefine a word to meet your preferred understanding of God’s decrees that something happen without chance that it won’t. And please remember that men are still doing the choosing and acting of sin as I argue the Scripturre says. I suggest you are slanting obvious meanings of words to support a philosophy, not a theology.


_________________
Robert

 2018/12/5 20:07Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1947
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Also Robert, I don't think you quoted me fairly in your reply. You wrote:

Quote:
I’m confused by your language. He planned it but not in the sense of planning?? I’m not trying to be condescending but I think that is what you said.


I did not write, "He planned it but not in the sense of planning," those are your words not mine.

In reference to God's ultimate plan of redemption and the evil actions of men in crucifying Christ, I stated, "I’d say He chose to accomplish that ultimate purpose through certain “secondary” means or causes which He permitted but didn’t Himself commit or “plan” in that sense."

Yet you made it seem as if I was using "double talk" of sorts, which I wasn't.


_________________
Oracio

 2018/12/5 20:14Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1828


 Re: disagreements


Oracio,

Your interpretation of Piper and I goes like this;

"He foreknew them because He “performed” and “did” them Himself. In other words, God knows every future event and human decision because He authors/performs/does every future event and human decision, including every evil act committed."


I am not saying that, nor is Piper.

Piper and I agree. You've misunderstood Piper.

God performing and doing is not equal to, as you say,"...He “performed” and “did” them Himself."

God accomplishes His own purpose(s), which may at times be secret or hidden temporarily, but His purpose(s) is/are always good and perfect.

Neither I nor Piper, nor any other son of God in the family of God would indict God with the committal of an evil act, or with the accusation of being guilty of sin. For such is an impossibility. God Himself cannot sin.

I never thought that anyone would or could get the impression that anything of the sort was being said by Piper or myself.

God is Good
God is Holy
God is Just
God is Love
God is God

No disagreements there!





 2018/12/5 20:16Profile





©2002-2018 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy