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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the problem "unwillingness" or "inability" ?

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CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

I want to address a misconception to everyone who use passages from the Bible about God desiring everyone to repent, or Jesus desiring that everyone in Jerusalem repent or God not taking pleasure in the death of the wicked as proof that man therefore is able to respond affirmatively to the Gospel. Those who hold to the position of man's inability to come to Jesus absent God's miraculous intervention don't dispute those texts in the least. We embrace them as glorious expressions of God's heart and thinking.

Another glorious expression of God's heart, however, is the passage that is a seminal expression of God's heart and that is that all men everywhere for all time would love Him with all their heart, mind, and soul. God really desires that. It's His greatest command and thus is His greatest desire. Yet, men don't and we know that they don't because they cannot do that. And they cannot do that because the sinful nature in man is so strong and does not desire that and hence does not do that. Not one of us I think disputes that. So we all agree that what God desires, man does not always do because of a problem in man. Are we "OK" if God holds man eternally responsible for disobeying a command that we all agree man is morally unable to do ? Or, if we aren't ok with that, do we then assert that God must by implication give every man everywhere and every time the ability to love Him with all his heart all the time?

John Wesley agreed that man was unable. Yet, he believed that God miraculously gives all men "ability" at some point in time in their life to believe and obey when it comes to the Gospel. The other position says God does not do that except for some. Wesley had no Scriptures to affirmatively and directly support his position. His was an argument of implication.

No one should take the expressions of God's desire that man do something as the end all proof that He gives them the ability to do what He desires. He doesn't do that with His command that we all love Him with all our heart. Yet, there are millions of people who will be condemned for not loving Him with all their heart. That is Biblical. I get the discomfort we all have with the fairness of that notion. This difficulty and dilemma is not what matters though. We can't impose our own fallen wisdom and thinking on God. It's a huge theological trap.

Here again is my challenge to those who hold that all men have the ability or obtain from God the ability to believe and obey the Gospel.... what verses would you point to that say that expressly and explicitly? It is the elephant in the room because it is a critical issue if we all agree that absent some miraculous action by God, all sinful men are unable to respond to the Gospel without that action.

I'm not mocking anyone, but often when guys like Marvin put forth texts that very arguably and often expressly indicate man has a moral inability ( not physical inability) to believe and that only some are given that ability, three things invariably happen. The basic theological arguments are....1) the texts we use to support our understanding don't mean what we think and so there is a focus and dispute about our proofs, 2) there is an assertion that God's agreed upon desire that all men everywhere and at all times repent requires and mandates by our notions of fairness and sincerity that God must give the ability to do so even though no Scripture says that, and then the show stopper, 3) the God that would not give the ability to all when He desires all is a terrible God. That is the course of every debate.

You guys know from years of thinking about and debating this issue which Scriptures the "inability" side of the debate argue to assert that men are morally unable to come to Christ unless God does some miraculous work in their heart. Just for the sake of a broader debate, What is/are your Scriptural text(s) that say expressly that either all men are able or second, that God shines the light of the knowledge of His glory in Jesus into every heart?

I'm sincerely not mocking. I don't know about Marvin or anyone else, but I personally would be happier in a human way if you had those texts and you were right. I used to argue hard for all having the ability but I couldn't satisfy for myself the challenge I just put forth and I found myself having to accept the Scriptures that plainly say that the man of the flesh who is expressly defined as a man who does not have the new nature, is unable to understand, is unable to truly receive the seed of the word in a fruit bearing way, and is unable to say from the heart that "Jesus is Lord". That was the primary purpose of the New Covenant, to make the people of God "able", "willing" and "wanting" to perform and walk in the ways of God by giving those in the Covenant the power and desire to do so which was lacking in men otherwise as the giving of the law without any power was used by God to show the Jews and us.

People who do not believe In Jesus are described by Jesus, not by those of us, as those who hate the light and thus are unwilling. He also says that no one can come to Him ( which He says is the same thing as believing) unless they have heard AND learned from the Father and He says that His sheep hear His voice and all follow Him. Those who are not His sheep do not hear His call and only His sheep will follow Him. The rest do not hear and do not follow because, HE says by way of explanation, they are not His sheep.

Those are some pretty strong texts. What are the strong texts that everyone who hears also learns. What are the texts that say that everyone is a sheep of Jesus and hear His call but then they refuse to believe and follow. I'm not mocking. Those texts have to be in the Scriptures to nullify or help us better explain the ones that create the basis for saying only some hear, only some come, only some can believe if they are of His sheep. I know the texts I just cited are texts you guys embrace and believe. Please don't tell me what they don't mean. Please give those texts that expressly say that all men everywhere are given sufficient light to believe. Its an honest and sincere need of the debate.





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Robert

 2018/12/10 6:34Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1165
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Fifi: glad to see you back. you asked

Now we go back to brother mak's question to you.
If God's heart was for the people to turn, why didn't they ?

I don't know, if you do, let me know.


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Marvin

 2018/12/10 9:20Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1165
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Fifi: I read through your last post a couple of times, I don't see in it anything that necessitates a change of opinion or interpretation on my part. In fact it enhances my position because faith is the resultant outcome of those who are chosen of God to believe and receive...they hear because they are Jesus sheep.

The necessity of living by faith was incumbent in the Old Testament as well as the new; your distinction reveals another 'mode' by which sinful man attempts to placate God without actually loving God.

Thanks though for responding and engaging you bless me when you do so.


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Marvin

 2018/12/10 9:35Profile
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661


 Re: Robert's Question

Robert asked:

"What is/are your Scriptural text(s) that say expressly that .... God shines the light of the knowledge of His glory in Jesus into every heart?"

Answer: John 1:9 The true Light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.

Contrary to some, I believe God's grace is absolutely resistible and there are plenty of verses warning us to obey the voice of God and not resist Him with unbelief. God gives grace to the humble but not everyone who hears the truth will necessarily submit to the truth and repent and obey.

I believe that fallen man does not have the ability to do anything to commend himself to God or otherwise obtain reconciliation or fellowship with God without first HUMBLING himself and confessing his sinfulness and inability to please God. God does give every person the ability to humble themselves before God but they must choose to actually do it. After that, great light, grace and ability to receive God's further gifts of revelation and grace are available to them. Christ mourned over Jerusalem because they would not humble themselves and receive Him and so be saved. He did not mourn for them because they could not humble themselves and repent and believe.

-Daniel

 2018/12/10 9:46Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035
Oregon

 Re:

Amen Daniel,

Robert, you asked a fair request.
Here is a verse I found immediately as I opened the Bible, and you would have too if you had opened yours.

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”

This was given by God to Cain, the first prodigal and the father of all the sons of perdition

The language is very similar to what God says to Eve by way of judgment, your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you.

The Bible further expounds on the meaning of " rule"
Eve had to submit to Adam, be under his dominion, accept his headship, be in subjection to his rule..
Adam was to lead, have authority over, be head of Eve ( I am sure you agree with that 😉)

Now, apply this same language to Cain ( or all fallen mankind) and sin.






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Fifi

 2018/12/10 10:38Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035
Oregon

 Re:

Quote""
I don't know, if you do, let me know."" Quote

I asked you to take it from the mouth of God, Marvin, "But you were not willing"


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Fifi

 2018/12/10 10:56Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Hi Daniel and Fifi

So every human being on earth has the light of Jesus shone in their hearts by the text you are quoting.

Daniel, are there any other texts for the idea that God gives grace to every man to believe. I'm not talking about the requirements of God to humble yourself, or repent, or believe. I'm not getting at what we all might think or decide is true. I'm sincerely trying to get to the Scriptures that say that every human being on earth has been given the grace to be humble, to repent and to believe. If you think Scripture says that we are born with that ability, then I would certainly want to know that alternatively or as well. Most believe God has to give the grace for sinful man to see the light of Jesus. Some believe all are given that light. I'm just asking for the Scripture that says that. Clearly, there are maybe billions of people who have not heard of Jesus so I'm struggling to understand your Scripture quote to address that fact. Maybe there are Scriptures you have that address the apparent discrepancy between the light
of the truth of Jesus being brought to everyone and the fact that billions haven't heard His name much less His Gospel. I'm not trying to trap you or anyone else. We have to have Scriptures to support a solution for sinful man's problem which almost all I know say is his natural inclination not to submit to God.


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Robert

 2018/12/10 11:10Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035
Oregon

 Re:

Robert says: quote""As to inability, Piper points to John 10 and 6 to assert that people don’t believe because they are not Jesus’ sheep and can’t hear His voice""


I don't care what conclusions Piper draws from the word. Let's examine John 10.

"My sheep hear my voice"
Where does Jesus say that being his sheep preceds hearing his voice.
My sheep hear my voice is an equation sentence ( by the way you will not find this in grammar books, this is a word of my own making )
Hear is what I mean. He is simply saying that what characterises my sheep is that they hear my voice. He was saying that to make a contrast between those who listen to the voice of a stranger, and those who recognize the voice of the shepherd...
But it was not his intention to place one characteristic before the other. He could've also said those who hear my voice are my sheep.

You see Jesus make these kinds of statements quite often where you would be able to place an equation mark between the two characters and invert the order without doing any change to the meaning.

For example, he says to Peter, "If you love me, shepherd my sheep". It means : you love me=shepherd my sheep.He is simply saying, if you want to prove you love me, you must shepherd my sheep.
You could invert the statement by saying
If you shepherdy my sheep, you prove to me that you love me

Another example.
If you love me= you obey commandments
If you obey my commandments=you love me


As with regards to John 6:27,44,65, I have posted the answer on another thread a while back. So, I am just pasting it here:


""
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.) John 6:44. Does this verse address human inability? In the first glance it appears so, In order to understand the meaning of this verse we have to take it within the context of the teachings of Jesus in John.. Who are the audience Jesus is addressing? What are their objections? Do they believe in human ability to come to God in ones own power and therefore Jesus is correcting them. Is he playing the Calvinist correcting His Arminian audience. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. If anyone could fit in the Calvinist shoe, it would be his audience, the religious leaders who believed they are God’s chosen people. If we look at the whole context we find Jesus confronting the religious leaders who insist on asserting two facts. 1: That they know the Father, and 2: That Jesus can not be from the Father. To Jesus, this is a logical and spiritual impossibility because, in Jesus mind, and in consistency with the rest of his teaching that spiritual knowledge comes by revelation , not by education, so much so that babes and suckling infants, and not, the wise and the prudent are those who are qualified to enter the kingdom. if someone truly knows the Father, the Father in turn will open his or her eyes and show him the Son. If someone rejects the Son it is because they do not know the Father. So, here we find the statement take on a slight twist. He is not so much emphasizing the truth that no one can come to the Son except he be drawn by the Father( although that is true too but in a completely different sense that what‘s being taught today), but rather, in Jesus Words, the reason you are not coming to Me is because you are not being drawn by my Father, and the reason you are not being drawn by my Father is because you do not know Him and He does not know you. If you knew Him as you claim, He will automatically reveal my deity to you and you will not stumble over Me. The father does not know you even though you think you are God ‘s elect. But you do not know me nor Him since the only ones the Father will draw are the humble, and lowly, You can not believe because you care more about the glory you receive from one another than God’s glory. Wow, truly that is so simple that the wise and the prudent who are so caught up in theological and philosophical debates will completely miss it. As we can see, this verse does not fall in the Arminian, nor the Calvinist camp, but rather addresses something much simpler, yet, to Jesus, it was much more relevant and profound.















_________________
Fifi

 2018/12/10 11:41Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1165
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Fifi: , sorry I am still not 100% yet, in fact about 30%, foggy head today. I don't understand what you mean. Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God is my desired food, every interpretation of that word is not always accepted and we all testify to that.

So, I need a little more help seeing what youre getting at.
Sorry for being slow or tedious, it's not my intention to deny your point.


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Marvin

 2018/12/10 11:44Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Daniel wrote:

Quote:
Contrary to some, I believe God's grace is absolutely resistible and there are plenty of verses warning us to obey the voice of God and not resist Him with unbelief. God gives grace to the humble but not everyone who hears the truth will necessarily submit to the truth and repent and obey.

I believe that fallen man does not have the ability to do anything to commend himself to God or otherwise obtain reconciliation or fellowship with God without first HUMBLING himself and confessing his sinfulness and inability to please God. God does give every person the ability to humble themselves before God but they must choose to actually do it. After that, great light, grace and ability to receive God's further gifts of revelation and grace are available to them. Christ mourned over Jerusalem because they would not humble themselves and receive Him and so be saved. He did not mourn for them because they could not humble themselves and repent and believe.



Exactly my thoughts on it. But I’m sure our friends would have us believe that unregenerate man is also unable to humble himself apart from God’s “irresistible” grace; they would include the command to humble oneself as part of God’s “impossible” commands to man. However, I think the burden of proof is on them to prove that man cannot choose to humble himself and acknowledge his need of a Savior apart from some “irresistible” grace.

The truth is, if you are unsaved, God is not responsible to make you humble yourself or to make you choose to repent and believe the gospel. That is your responsibility before God.

The only places in the Bible where we see the idea of God forcibly humbling someone is in places that speak of God’s judgment coming upon the wicked for their refusal to humble themselves (Matt. 23:12; Isa. 2:11; Ps. 18:27; etc.). So if you wait for God to humble you, He surely will do that, but in judgment not salvation.

My concern is that some unsaved people wrongfully get the impression that they must wait on God to irresistibly humble them and to “grant” them repentance and faith. There are indeed some who think that way after hearing that type of message from certain Christians or preachers. I know of one former famous “reformed” Christian singer turned atheist who argues that way. He says that if God is real, He will irresistibly draw him and save him regardless of his current condition as an atheist. You can look up “Derek Webb: A Reformed Atheist?” on YouTube or google “Steve Frailey blogspot What Happened to Derek Webb?”.

It is that type of message that Finney so adamantly opposed during his era (he found that that type of message was very prevalent at the time), though I do think and acknowledge Finney went too far in some things in his “knee jerk reaction” and fierce opposition to it.

edit added: The former Christian singer says that If God is real and if God has chosen Him for salvation, God will irresistibly draw him and save him in His time.


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Oracio

 2018/12/10 11:52Profile





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