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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the problem "unwillingness" or "inability" ?

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PosterThread
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1043
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Dear Brother,
It was not my intent to rile you in anyway shape, form or fashion...
and yes Finney’s tendency to attack Calvin and his doctrine is not lost on me, however 2 wrongs don’t make a right (as my mother would say). So if the situation were the same but Finney was posting on a public forum I’d say the same...
There’s a proper (godly) way to disagree on these matters beautifully displayed by Lord Jesus- “woe unto them that”... and the like-

I’m simply encouraging you to consider the effect an attack from within the body has on the body.

Brother Marvin, you are a fiercely intelligent gentleman and a beloved brother and lover of Christ, for that is as clear as the noonday sun being made evident here on SI by your contributions which both comfort and challenge us in our own perseverance as we build up the body of Christ together:)
It’s just that sometimes we (myself included) can come off as less than gentle, meek and lowly and in this way we fail the grace God gives us to build up the body, striving for unity-
It wasn’t my intention to equate you as a brother with a 1st century Pharisee in personhood, rather I (clumsily) was attempting to illustrate the effects of such a position of opposition.
While I completely understand what you’re sayin about defending the truth, surely you know that Finney would make a similar claim and no good (for God) would come of it. Whereas being respectful in disagreement is a thing that can bring God glory.

Incidentally I was in no way suggesting Charles G Finney saved anyone ever,... simply that in spite of his misgivings God was able to use him to advance His kingdom in quantifiable ways. Much like He used Edwards, Wesley, Whitfield, etc... in spite of their obvious differences in doctrine/theology etc... tho even to them, if the situation was comparable, I’d encourage the same.

Just for the record, in my walk with the Lord, the man whom has best navigated these situations without compromising the truth as revealed to Him is brother Keith Daniels😇

Again, I applaud and rejoice in your conviction and efforts,...just trying to get you to see how our words can cut and injure our brethren-
There’s a wonderful sermon by brother Daniels from the 2011 SI conference (if memory serves) entitled “the war with the most casualties is the war between the saints” where he addresses the CALvsARM issue in a godly and profitable way:)

Blessings dear brother and may the peace of God reign in and over us all~


_________________
Fletcher

 2018/12/2 23:02Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 825
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Brother Fletcher: Thanks for the reply, I hear you, believe you and consider what you said to be a godly admonition to me.

Thank you for it.

I'll check out the sermon from Keith Daniels...he is a pulpit slapper isnt he...


_________________
Marvin

 2018/12/2 23:20Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1043
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Brother Marvin,
Yes he is!
He is one of my favs for sure...

The way he taps the pulpit with his finger as he pauses, drawing the listener into a direct engagement makes me smile every time;)
Seems a quite effective tactic.
While describing him once to a friend, “ it’s like God plucked him up out of the 17th century and plopped him down in the mid-20th century,.. this place is not his home-he just doesn’t fit in and it’s a beautiful thing”


_________________
Fletcher

 2018/12/2 23:35Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re:


Accusations presented by Marvin.
Quote""
Charles Finney's Hamartiology contains pure Pelagianism, it is un-orthodox, heretical and poison. The reason why it's considered poison is because it diminishes the atonement of Christ while pretending to improve the actual condition of man."" Quote



Answering the accusations with a quote on the subject of moral depravity, (a quote taken from the writtings of Charles Finney:)

Quote""
That men are morally depraved is one of the most notorious facts of human experience, observation and history. Indeed, I am not aware that it has ever been doubted, when moral depravity has been understood to consist in selfishness.

The moral depravity of the human race is everywhere assumed and declared in the Bible, and so universal and notorious is the fact of human selfishness, that should any man practically call it in question--should he, in his business transactions, and in his intercourse with men, assume the contrary, he would justly subject himself to the charge of insanity. There is not a fact in the world more notorious and undeniable than this. Human moral depravity is as palpably evident as human existence. It is a fact everywhere assumed in all governments, in all the arrangements of society, and has impressed its image, and written its name, upon every thing human.

VI. Subsequent to the commencement of moral agency, and previous to regeneration, the moral depravity of mankind is universal.

By this it is not intended to deny that, in some instances, the Spirit of God may, from the first moment of moral agency, have so enlightened the mind as to have secured conformity to moral law, as the first moral act. This may or may not be true. It is not my present purpose to affirm or to deny this, as a possibility, or as a fact.

But by this is intended, that every moral agent of our race is, from the dawn of moral agency to the moment of regeneration by the Holy Spirit, morally depraved, unless we except those possible cases just alluded to. The Bible exhibits proof of it.

1. In those passages that represent all the unregenerate as possessing one common wicked heart or character. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."--Gen. vi. 5. "This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead."--Eccl. ix. 3. "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked: who can know it?"--Jer. xvii. 9. "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."--Rom. viii. 7.

2. In those passages that declare the universal necessity of regeneration. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."--John iii. 3.

3. Passages that expressly assert the universal moral depravity of all unregenerate moral agents of our race. "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways: and the way of peace have they not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin."--Rom. iii. 9-20.

4. Universal history proves it. What is this world's history but the shameless chronicle of human wickedness?

5. Universal observation attests it. Whoever saw one unregenerate human being that was not selfish, that did not obey his feelings rather than the law of his intelligence, that was not under some form, or in some way, living to please self? Such an unregenerate human being I may safely affirm was never seen since the fall of Adam.

6. I may also appeal to the universal consciousness of the unregenerate. They know themselves to be selfish, to be aiming to please themselves, and they cannot honestly deny it.

VII. The moral depravity of the unregenerate moral agents of our race, is total.

By this is intended, that the moral depravity of the unregenerate is without any mixture of moral goodness or virtue, that while they remain unregenerate, they never in any instance, nor in any degree, exercise true love to God and to man. It is not intended, that they may not perform many outward actions, and have many inward feelings, that are such as the regenerate perform and experience: and such too as are accounted virtue by those who place virtue in the outward action. But it is intended, that virtue does not consist either in involuntary feelings or in outward actions, and that it consists alone in entire consecration of heart and life to God and the good of being, and that no unregenerate sinner previous to regeneration, is or can be for one moment in this state.


_________________
Fifi

 2018/12/2 23:40Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 825
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Hi Fifi: This is Mak's thread, the subject is off topic, start another thread and I will address it there.

This all sounds really good, but Finney has more to say as to the 'causation' than is discussed here.

Edit to add: Fifi: you will need to remove your interpretational grid and put on another set of glasses to look at Finneys teachings, namely his own interpretational grid, then you will be able to understand what Finney is saying. At the moment you are interpreting him through your own definitions...and that would be wrong. Let him define his own terms so you can weigh out my claims and his own declarations.

but please start another thread if you want to pursue this.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/12/3 9:38Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re:


Dear Marvin, I will not start anything with you here or in another thread for the following reasons:


You have some argumental tactics that I do not appreciate, some of which are personal attack, character assassination, confusion of terms, generalization, assuming wrong motives, attributing ignorance to your opponent (which here happen to be your brothers), logical fallacies, and much more..besides your ability to write a thousand words a minute, something I can not compete with. Just reading your posts makes me so tired.

However, you did attack Finney, who happened to be one of my favorite theologians, and I had to respond. I only have very few that I have found to posses a rare integrity. In fact of all out there, only he, John Wesley, and much but not all of Jonathan Edwards. These are people who suffered greatly for standing for truth when it was and still is least popular.

Besides, I do not see how this is irrelevant to this thread when Finney also believed that it was unwillingness, and not inability that was the problem. He believed that man possesses the ability to obey all the law of God. The problem is, he had an evil heart, desires,and will not do it. Only through regeneration and the new birth when his heart and affections are changed can he be restored again to first state of conformity to the law of God.

And lastly, it was not me but you who brought Finney into this by your attack on him. I merely quoted a small portion of the introduction of a critique by Bill Nicely to b.b. Warfield criticism of Finney's doctrine of Christian perfection, a portion which contained some logical fallacies Warfield made in his attack on Finney, which I found would be useful to avoid making here.

Now I must leave this thread and wish you and
brother mak the best.










_________________
Fifi

 2018/12/3 11:31Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 4968
NC, USA

 Re:

// open-theism which I find heretical//

Marvin- of course you and many others think this, but I was wondering if you could state **succinctly** (like in two sentences of reasonable length) WHY you think this. I obviously don’t want to derail this thread which is why I am looking for a very pithy response. We could start another thread but I don’t really want to.


_________________
Todd

 2018/12/3 12:22Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 825
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Fifi: We all hate it when our faves get a beat down.

It is no doubt true I am all you've said and more besides, some days are worse than others.

In the last analysis, I retract nothing I've said in regards to the doctrines of Roger Olson and Charles Finney.

My candid remarks, my opinionated posts and my refusal of various doctrines generate all kinds of summations of my posting, character and tactics. My one regret is you feel the need to leave the thread.

It's ok if you don't read my posts...skip over them and read Mak's and the others.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/12/3 13:32Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1828


 Re: open theism



In response to the poster who asks..."WHY"...

I'd be one of the many others who think that open-theism is heretical. I'd go beyond it being merely heretical. I'd go so far as to say that it is damnably heretical, being idolatrous at its root.

Succinctly why I think this;

“The future is not entirely knowable, even for God.”

"Though God’s knowledge is coextensive with reality in that God knows all that can be known, the future actions of free creatures are not yet reality, and so there is nothing to be known, leaving open the possibility that God might be mistaken about some points, as the biblical record acknowledges.”

"God foreknows that certain things are going to take place, but other things he does not know."


The above quotes are from leading advocates of this recent damnable heresy which has infiltrated some churches and taken captive a number of men.

 2018/12/3 13:44Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 825
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: redefining God.


Hi Todd: Open Theism redefines the attributes of God, these attributes are always lessened as to their extent. In the lessening of God, humanities need for an unchangeable, all wise all powerful God is eroded and replaced with a new "learning god", a "not-almighty" but improving god.
Gods omniscience, omnipotence and his immutability are now all lessened to fit the necessary and all important libertarian free-will of man.

Gregory Boyd and his adherents are basically saying the Church got it wrong for the last 2000 years. The Jews got it wrong for the previous 2000 years.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/12/3 13:47Profile





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