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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the problem "unwillingness" or "inability" ?

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JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1043
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Brother Mak

Well said :)


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Fletcher

 2018/12/1 14:56Profile
cup
Member



Joined: 2018/9/6
Posts: 66


 Mak - question

Mak,

You wrote "I heard the word of truth and I believed and it was at that moment that I was included in Christ and received the Holy Spirit."

Are you saying that before this happened to you that you were excluded from Christ?

This is just a question.



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Vern

 2018/12/1 15:12Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 577
Texas

 Re: Mak - question

Yes

11Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2018/12/1 16:19Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1947
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Thank you also brother Daniel for sharing that portion from Roger Olson's book. While I do not agree with some of Olson's and Arminianism's distinctives, I agree with the main point and analogy in that quote. I think the only thing I wouldn't agree with in that quote is Olson's mention of "previenient grace," because by that term he means something I and others don't embrace as being true.


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Oracio

 2018/12/1 18:28Profile
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Joined: 2018/9/6
Posts: 66


 brought near through the blood of Christ

Mak,

13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Where you not brought near by Christ's blood that was shed over 2000 years ago?


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Vern

 2018/12/1 19:05Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 577
Texas

 Re: brought near through the blood of Christ

Vern, you asked
“Where you not brought near by Christ's blood that was shed over 2000 years ago?”

Yes, in the sense that 2000 years ago the price for atonement was fully paid for my liberation and justification from sin.

His justification and victory over sin became mine when I received Him and He gave to me His authority to become a son of God. Then I was born of God by the Holy Spirit and became united with Him in all He had already obtained.

Mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2018/12/2 8:43Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 825
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: My own cry


Hi Alan: If my post spurred on that clear of a declaration, I have succeeded.

To the rest.

Though to Alan and others some of my 'conclusions' seemed a gross mis-characterization, to hundreds of others it is spot on. You see, my conclusions were simply the responses from others who took their 'free-will' and their human ability to a more powerful position than Alan's claim.

My obtuse generalizations are not the product of my own logic errors, but the claims of my arminian and non-arminian brothers/sisters. Not everyone believes like Alan and though he seem to find a lot of comforters here and I get to look like the meanie-calvinist I've had the opportunity to speak with hundreds of others on this subject and they don't come to the conclusions some of you do, instead they fit the 'obtuse generalization' with a proud amen from them.

As to Roger Olson, he sounds well rounded until you dive deeper into his open-theism which I find heretical and abhorrent. As long as a few quotes from someone who bolsters your position is quoted...he must be right-on. I have commented numerous times on Roger Olson's site and I found his perversions of God's attributes nothing short of heresy. I told him so in no uncertain terms, which were shortly purged from the comment section.

Charles finney's abhorrent pelagianism is anathametized by the orthodox everywhere, but as long as he can bolster another position he is all good too. Have I read Finney? I've read through his systematic theology when I was an admirer of him and another 8 other books written by him, edited by Parkhurst. I know what he believes.

Lots of us like 'exact wording' and precise understandings of Hebrew and Greek and you can add the Ad populum argument to either side who stack up theologians in their favor.

Just remember, what is reprehensible to you, is an amen and hallelujah to others.

It's important to me to get to know what Alan actually believes, dancing around with novel interpretations of Romans 1 simply skirts the issue as far as I am concerned.

The best way to find out is to categorize Alan's claims with the other arminians of similar strain...Alan has his own nuances and his own (very fortunately)superior interpretation of scripture. Some folks don't like that and that's fine, it happens to me all the time. As a Calvinist I am automatically assumed in terms of burning babies in hell and majoring on some elitist knowledge/election gnosticism non-sense.

But, as I read carefully, no one can deny God Elects, God determines salvation as much as he has determined to conform the elect to Christ. As long as you will not come to grips with the realities of our Covenant and God, you will always have a god to complain about. For Todd, God cant chose, God cant punish eternally in hell, for others God cant chose, God cant know ahead of time who are his own and still tell us to 'preach to every creature'. For them, God is unfair. If every man woman and child does not have an equal chance at salvation God is patently unfair. That thinking borders on blasphemy.
To all of that kind of "God is unfair if he" thinking...it's reprehensible to me, its abhorrent, its ungodly and a false-hood about God.

These limitations on God are not what I have grossly misconstrued upon you all, but what you all insist for yourselves.

I don't give your favored theologians a free-pass because they have a doctorate, Bart Ehrman has one too and is utterly apostate yet another website I was kicked out of because I told them so; a doctorate and an apostate equals an apostate who will be condemned greater because he was given more.

I realize Alan and Roger O. agree that their decision to believe cannot undermine God's glory in giving the free gift of salvation. Yet, there are no reasonable Calvinists that would disagree either.

What Alan and Roger both do is say "my belief doesn't negate or taint the prevenient grace that brought me to Christ"
The fact is, I made no argument that your response did negate God's free grace. I make the argument that our response is because of free-grace, it is because of God's electing work...choosing us before we chose him. We are always responder-s not initiators and therefore the greater praise and focus should be directed to the 'guy who gave the 1000 dollars' and not to the guy who says "yea ill take it"

Yet, somehow my precious faith in God's electing and sacrificial love needs to step aside to Heretical open Theists and Heretical Pelagians. Go figure.






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Marvin

 2018/12/2 18:32Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1043
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Brother Marvin

Dear brother,

While I can understand from your doctrinal allegiance Charles G Finney would be on the “other side of the world” from your understanding. However please dear brother, for the Namesake of Jesus & your own souls sake,... please reconsider openly attacking a man God used mightily to win 100,000’s of well saved souls to our beloved Lord Jesus, who’s doctrines and theologies you happen to take issue with....

Please be reminded that the 1st century Pharisees did much the same to our Savior and it didn’t work out so well for them-


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Fletcher

 2018/12/2 20:23Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 825
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Brother Fletcher: Please allow me...Charles Finney's Hamartiology contains pure Pelagianism, it is un-orthodox, heretical and poison. The reason why it's considered poison is because it diminishes the atonement of Christ while pretending to improve the actual condition of man.

I am not a Pharisee to refuse heresy. I am not some unsaved, un-spirit filled judge just trying to denigrate someone who disagrees with me, he is errant and it does you good to read him and why he's considered errant.

If you cannot attack heresy, then why pretend to love truth? You really cant Fletcher, no matter how unifying your gesture toward him or others may be.

The reason why so many are in error and ignorance is because to preserve unity and the appearance of love, we tolerated evil in the form of heresy.
This same argument can be raised to defend homosexuality, lesbianism, idolatry and a variety of other popular and trendy sins which are approved by the masses today. Ignorance of what the scriptures say and an emphasis on silencing anyone telling the rest of us...these guys are full of bologna.

My point was not to derail the thread by my position on these men and their abhorrent doctrines, it was to show that until you really know what people believe anyone can quote anyone and the simple will take it as good as gold.

By the way, Finney didnt save anyone, that praise belongs to Jesus. Charles Finney will be judged for being faithful to the biblical message and his heart to obeying Jesus in all related matters.
I will be judged by the same standard as will we all. Finney had no qualms whatsoever about calling out who he thought were errant and spending a good amount of ink to show his system of thought over theirs...if you read much of Finney you would know this. You are asking me to sit down and shut up while Finney gets a free pass? Look carefully at what you are defending.

Do not learn cowardice from others by means of silence to complete error. Speak up. God is our Judge, but if I cannot judge the doctrines of these men and let heresy creep in by way of 'supposed credibility'. You find out, whatever good came from Finney's preaching was inspite of his doctrinal error, not because of it.

Fletcher you are an excellent and beloved poster here, your posts, insights and wisdom are without dispute but you must also know that new converts build upon the first fundamental teachings they receive, and if those first teachings be uprooted because they are error you find out Sermons from Finney and others like him have done the new convert no favors at all because the teachers and pastors who will disciple those converts now have the job of destroying the errors planted in those new and susceptible hearts.

lastly

Again, must every post I make become a point of defense, are there any here who actually read the folks they quote?

I value my soul and when I give account, I want to be able to say, "Jesus you gave me courage to tell the truth among a people who loved peace more than truth and backslapping approvals more than honoring God's word".

About 16 years ago I had come to a real crossroads in my Christian walk...and it literally had come down to "should I believe Charles Finney and his doctrines or Charles Spurgeon and his doctrines". I tell you I loved them both, but their teaching on the sinful condition of men are diametrically opposed to one another and they both cannot be right...neither can some Hegelian dialectic satisfy an in-between ground. By the grace and mercy of God, I believe I was lead away from Finney. It was not until I dissected his systematic theology that I realized I had made the right choice. His Hamartiology was not fundamentally biblical, his was liberal ( though you could hardly call Finney a liberal).

I will not post further on this subject, I am simply explaining my reasoning.




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Marvin

 2018/12/2 21:54Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 825
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Someone might assert "yea, well who really knows the truth about these things?" and so dismiss any actual question and debate as "going no where".

All I will say is what I said months ago to Brother Blaine,

"what hill of truth is not worth dying on"?

For some...there is no hill of truth worth dying on and for that reason they remain ignorant. Their skepticism is of more value than belief in any actual word of God. The only time a person like this believes anyone else is because their own personal proclivities are satisfied by such a belief. The Devil has this same identical faith.




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Marvin

 2018/12/2 22:15Profile





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