| Poster | Thread | makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas
| | Re: | | Ray,
These disciples “asked” for the parable to be explained. Everyone who asks receives. Everyone who seeks finds. Everyone who knocks the door is opened. The disciples had received the message from John the Baptist, this was the beginning of their relationship.
Jesus was clearly saying “there is nothing concealed that was not meant to be revealed. This is why He answered their question with a question. “Which of YOU lights a lamp to cover it up?” No one does that!
He was saying that anyone who wants to know can know! That is why men should be very careful HOW they hear. To the one who has, he will be given more....
The reference to Isaiah was a rebuke to the people for the same spiritual dullness that Isaiah dealt with. Just as the Lord longed for them to know, Jesus longed for the people to know and everyone who asked Him for understanding will receive understanding.
Mak
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Alan and Dina Martin
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|  2018/12/20 11:06 | Profile | CofG
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Posts: 964
Cambodia
| | Re: | | And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. - Matthew 13:11
Mak, your response to Savannah, given this Scripture appears to be error.
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Robert
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| | 2018/12/20 11:32 | Profile | Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1165
Snoqualmie, WA
| | Re: | | Hi Mak: I read the responses concerning the parable of the sower. A few remarks.
1. 3 out the 4 'sowings' failed. Either offense, the devil, or worldliness derailed these people, only one had the 'good heart' and that heart cannot be made good by their own efforts, works, prayers etc. God's working in that heart is the only effectual working that manifests change toward genuine repentance and faith.
2. The fact that the disciples asked about the meaning of the parable should be obvious. They were called of God, chosen by Jesus and anointed by him for his ministry. This in itself indicates another 'electing' work of grace and with that substantiates why the crowd received unexplained parables and the disciples received interpreted parables.
It appears you conflated the receiving of an interpretation by the disciples as equal to Jesus is willing to interpret to everyone the parables. He didn't do that at all.
3. Eschatologically the parable sits in front of the outpouring of the Spirit and the entrance of the New Covenant, where those who may have heard parables and didn't understand them and weren't granted an interpretation of them...did later receive the parables and the interpretation by means of the 'born-again' disciples empowered to declare the whole counsel of God.
Yet this also displays God's prerogative to reveal when what and to whom he choses according to his own plan.
The reality was then as now...no you don't just get to 'know' all about God and Christ by means of your just asking. The fault does not lay with God 'hiding the truth', it lay in the human nature suppressing the little truth that can be known and has been given. In my dealings with all sort of people the only ones that truly ask about the things of God are those whom God is convicting and convincing of his love and grace. The others through hundreds of conversations can recite the gospel and hate every word of it. Even to them even the interpretation of a parable is as senseless and meaningless as the parable itself.
In my unredeemed state, I was told many times to read the bible...and when I did, it was like reading hieroglyphics I could understand the story but it's importance and relevance were completely hidden from me.
Point is, our interpretation of this parable is not an attempt to show God in a negative light, but rather show that unless God intervenes, makes the heart good, and calls you unto himself you are destined to fail like the other 3 seed-beds who 'received' the word of God too.
This parable far from needing a twist from a reformed perspective validates God's prerogative in the salvation of man.
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Marvin
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| | 2018/12/20 11:38 | Profile | makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas
| | Re: | | I simply think our Lord’s point was unless you hear carefully you will never bear fruit unto life.
Mak
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Alan and Dina Martin
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| | 2018/12/20 11:59 | Profile | Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | Hi Robert you wrote Quote:
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." - John 8:47
Jesus said to Nicodemus, you must be born again to see or understand the Kingdom.
Jesus said, My sheep “hear” my voice and they will follow Me.
Mak, right hearing according to Jesus has only to do with being “of God”., being born again, being one of His sheep. Like Nicodemus, the meaning of that was lost on the heaters for the most part. I’’ll leave it to you figure out what being “of God” means from Scripture.
Regarding John 8:47, this is how I understand your view interprets it:
“Whoever was predetermined to be of God by irresistible means is irresistibly caused to hear the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is because God did not choose for you to be saved.”
Hears how I along with many other believers would interpret it:
"Whoever is willing to repent and believe the gospel when God draws them through the convicting/convincing work of the Spirit, hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you have willingly resisted the Spirit of grace and have refused to repent and believe the gospel, and have thus become hardened/calloused; you have chosen not to be of God and have no one to blame but yourself."
Towards John 3:3 and not being able to “see” the kingdom of God apart from new birth, Jesus goes on to say in verse 5 that one cannot “enter” the kingdom of God apart from new birth. So, we see that “seeing” the Kingdom is synonymous with “entering” the Kingdom in terms of the miraculous phenomena that occurs when one is saved.
The Greek word for “see” (εἴδω/eidō), has the following biblical usages (adapted from Blue Letter Bible):
I. to see
A. to perceive with the eyes
B. to perceive by any of the senses
C. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
D. to see
i. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
ii. to pay attention, observe
iii. to see about something
a. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
iv. to inspect, examine
v. to look at, behold
E. to experience any state or condition
F. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
II. to know
A. to know of anything
B. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
i. of any fact
ii. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
iii. to know how, to be skilled in
C. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)
Depending on the context in which the term is used, it can connote either a surface level “seeing” or a more intimate and deeper type of experience. In other words, it can mean either to simply “outwardly” see something or someone, or to come to “know” something or someone through a deeper knowledge or acquaintance. In His talk with Nicodemus Jesus is referring to the latter. He is basically telling him he cannot come to know/experience or enter the kingdom of God apart from new birth.
Jesus explains that it is God’s Spirit using the Word of God who miraculously and mysteriously does that work of grace in the heart and soul of those who are saved (vv. 5-7).
Then in verses 14-21 Jesus goes on to explain to Nicodemus how one can be born again, that is, how one can experience the new birth; namely through faith in Him and all that He would go on to accomplish in His atoning death for our sins on the cross.
So, Jesus first mentions the new birth and then He goes on to explain how it is applied to the sinner, namely via the channel of a humble repentance and faith in Himself.
And that accords with certain scriptures which seem to provide a certain “Ordo Salutis” (order of salvation).
John 20:31 says, “these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
Notice the order there. By believing we may have life in his name. It does not say that by being regenerated first we may believe.
Ephesians 1:13 says, “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.”
Again, we are not told that we are first sealed with the Holy Spirit through regeneration so as to hear and believe in Christ. Rather, we first hear the word of truth, believe in Christ, then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
I do believe salvation happens in one “instance” though. But in that instantaneous moment there seems to be a certain order of steps. And that seems to leave room for a free will decision to believe upon Christ on the part of the sinner when the gospel is being presented to him or her.
Quote:
Jesus said, My sheep “hear” my voice and they will follow Me.
Again, from what I understand, your view would interpret it thus:
“Jesus said, My sheep “hear” My voice because they are irresistibly “made” to hear My voice and they follow Me because they are made to follow Me through irresistible means.”
And again, mine and other believers’ understanding and interpretation is:
"Jesus sheep willingly (of their God-given free will) hear His voice and willingly (of their God-given free will) follow Him."
So I’d respectfully argue that there is no need to understand or interpret those passages in terms of God making sinners want Him by irresistible means.
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Oracio
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| | 2018/12/20 12:17 | Profile | savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265
| | Re: simply thinking | |
Mak said,
"Jesus was clearly saying “there is nothing concealed that was not meant to be revealed."
__________
JESUS said,
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight.
All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.”
Luke 10:21,22
_______________
Mak,
You said that "nothing" was meant to be concealed. But rather that all was meant to be revealed.
You may want to recant that statement.
You may want to say, "nothing...with the exception of ______." (fill in the blank)
You may want to "simply think"...again!
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| | 2018/12/20 12:57 | Profile | CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia
| | Re: | | Oracio,
Do you think that when Jesus says "you do not hear because you are not of God" that he is also saying that those who actually do hear do so because they are "of God".
I am not neglecting your other responses but that is the one that you left out. If you agree that Jesus is saying that those who hear do so because they are "of God", please tell me what Scripture says "of God" means.
Here are a few verses that I would go to:
John 8:44 - You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
so, there are those who are "of the devil".
John 1:13 - who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:34 - And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”
1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. (ESV)
1 John 3:9–10
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)
So, children of God and children of the devil. When Jesus said to the unbelievers that they could not hear Him and then told them that their father is the devil do you really think it is crazy to draw the obvious conclusion that to hear God you must be of God or born of God?
Jesus said, you do not believe because you are not my sheep. He did not say you are not my sheep because you do not believe. Please teach me Biblically, how you become one of Jesus' sheep. It can't be because you believe because Jesus has already ruled that out.
_________________
Robert
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| | 2018/12/20 13:03 | Profile | makrothumia
Member
Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas
| | Re: | | Ray, it was Jesus who said that ... remember - I was only the echo.
Added:
Remember that Jesus told those to whom it was revealed. What I tell you in secret proclaim openly.
The great commission is go into ALL the world making disciples teaching them to obey ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded you.
There may be a timing involved. God reveals things to stewards so they will in turn make those things known to others.
Mak
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Alan and Dina Martin
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| | 2018/12/20 13:07 | Profile | CofG
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Posts: 964
Cambodia
| | Re: | | Mak said,
(Remember that Jesus told those to whom it was revealed. What I tell you in secret proclaim openly.)
Mak, you are conflating Scriptures. Jesus said to you it has been given to understand, to them, the hearers of the parable, it has not been given to understand.
You can't change Jesus' words like that. It is clear that it was God's intention that the hearers of the parable would not understand. The understanding of the simple parable was not given to them by God. It was hidden from them. Why? You are running away from plain teaching and meaning.
_________________
Robert
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| | 2018/12/20 13:21 | Profile | savannah
Member
Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265
| | Re: regeneration or born from above | | Oracio said,
"...in verses 14-21 Jesus goes on to explain to Nicodemus how one can be born again, that is, how one can experience the new birth;
No, Jesus does not explain how one can be born again in verses 14-21. Here, He proclaims the Gospel. The facts, the truths which are to be believed.
He already went on to explain to Nicodemus how one can be born again, in the preceeding verses,
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
To be conceived physically as we all have been is being born of the flesh. Even that birth is miraculous, as God must breathe life into us and make us a living soul.
I know numerous couples who have done everything in their power to produce a child, but to no avail. Only God opens and closes the womb.
To be born from above is God imparting His life into us by His Spirit, and so we are born of His Spirit and made alive unto God. Only God creates life in the spirit.
Oracio, you make the new birth, being 'born/generated from above' (as it is literally translated) less than the miracle it is.
Again, remember that God's salvation is also likened unto a resurrection, and also a new creation.
To the glory of God alone!
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| | 2018/12/20 13:34 | Profile |
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