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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is the problem "unwillingness" or "inability" ?

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savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: MH3


"He does say the will is not forcefully made willing though."

I don't know any who'd say, the will is forcefully made willing.

Could you please furnish me with one who does say that?

The word "forcefully" is not used by any I've ever come across.

That kind of language gives me a picture in my mind of several police officers subduing a criminal by tasing him to get him to comply so that they can place handcuffs on him and take him into custody.

None I know paint any such picture of the miraculous divine grace of God bringing a man to Himself who had previously been an obstinate rebel and enemy of God.

As a Presbyterian Minister he'd have adopted and adhered to the Westminster Confession of Faith. Which states in chapter 9,

Of Free Will

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin,is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he frees him from his natural bondage under sin;and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.



 2018/12/13 20:28Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi savannah, what I meant by "forcefully" is "apart from, or without one's consent."

I've used this example before: Imagine a man slipping a drug in a smoothie he made for his wife; the drug will make the wife change from hating him and wanting to leave him for another man to loving him more than ever. Imagine the wife being reluctant to drink the smoothie at first but finally giving in to her husband's persuasion. The wife then changes from hating him to loving him, but not by consent, but rather "forcefully."

Again, it seems Henry allows for a sinner's willing consent when it comes to the general gospel call. He asserts in the passages I shared that if sinners do their part in response to God's call (as small a part as it may be in their undeserving, wretched condition), God'd grace will set in and radically convert them and work in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Henry does not say that God may or may not respond in favor toward sinners who use their "natural" abilities to respond to Him and seek Him; he affirms that God will certainly respond in favor toward sinners if they humbly respond to Him.


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Oracio

 2018/12/13 23:03Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Hi Marvin, you wrote:

Quote:
Reading Mak and Oracio, and Fifi this morning makes my heart rejoice.

Their honest and straightforward questions are the same questions thousands of others have or have had.

The answers of the reformed here may suffice, they may not but what I rejoice in are men and women here who really love Jesus Christ and want to know the truth of God's word and they are bold enough to put their thoughts and understandings on the table to be scrutinized by all.

I believe that is precious in the sight of God and its my privilege to be among men and women like this.

Now, if everyone believed like me...the world would be absurd.



Thanks brother, I appreciate your reconciliatory heart and encouragement!


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Oracio

 2018/12/13 23:47Profile
makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

Here is another example where I have attempted to reconcile the concept of election presented on this forum with the Paul's own expression.

The understanding of election presented here on the forum is that saving grace is only given specifically to the elect. Men can not respond to the gospel without God's quickening them to life first, and He only quickens His elect.

Here is another verse in Romans 5:15 where the concept of grace being limited to the elect appears to me to be irreconcilable with the actual text. Once again, I am willing to consider how some here who have presented their views of election have reconciled this verse in their own mind. I invite the brothers here to share with me your own personal understanding; it is your thoughts I am interested in, rather than a third party's.

Romans 5:15 - "But not as the trespass so also the grace; for if from the one trespass the many died, to many more the grace of God and the gift by grace by the one man Jesus Christ unto the many abounded."

Paul uses specific personal pronouns to compare the extent of the trespass to the extent of the grace and the gift of grace. In his comparison, the extent of grace is not only specifically designated by "to many more" but he adds the exclamation of "abounded" to further his point.


Those who believe that the gift of grace is only given to the elect, by logical necessity must limit the extent of grace to a lesser extent than the extent of the trespass. There is not a man on earth where the trespass has not reached. How am I to understand that "the grace and the gift of grace" reaches to "many more" than the trespass has reached according to the view that saving grace is only given to the elect - which are a mere remnant in comparison?


I am still very interested in considering the personal understanding of those who have presented their views of election here on the forum regarding Romans 5:18-19 which contain the same grammatical construct of extent and effect as Romans 5:15.



Please help me understand why Paul would use such specific language when you believe he understood that God does not offer saving grace to everyone affected by Adam's trespass?


mak



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Alan and Dina Martin

 2018/12/14 4:55Profile
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 Re:

Hi Mak,

With regard to "the many" of Romans 5:15, we know that all men die through Adam, is it your reasoning that Paul is stating that because of Jesus, the grace unto salvation has been given to all men as in every single man? I'm trying to figure out through the text and your question who "the many" are in the two references in the text and what the "grace" is that the text as you are seeing it refers to.

Also, remind me please if you would, does the Greek say "the many" or is it rendered also "many" ? The translations vary.


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Robert

 2018/12/14 6:07Profile
makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

Thank you for your question Robert,

The definite article οἱ πολλοὶ is used both times. This means that Paul has "the same many" in mind both times.

The text is clear that Paul has the same "many" in mind, so the question is what does Paul mean by indicating that the "grace" and "the gift of grace" BY the one man Jesus Christ abounded "to the many"?

What do you understand Paul meant by "the grace" and "the gift of grace?"

What type of "grace" and "gift of grace" abounds to the "same" many that death came to because of the trespass?


mak

Added: the same question regarding verses 18 and 19 apply. The same group "all men" that condemnation came to, Paul states that "justification unto life" came to.

What type of "justification of life" came to "all men" that condemnation had come to?


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2018/12/14 6:21Profile
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 Re:

Thanks Mak, I know you definitely aren't arguing for this, but universalist say that the grace in the context of the passage is a grace unto justification of life so that when Paul uses the many in the second reference in the text he is saying that all receive justification unto life ( grace ) through Christ.

Here is something I found on line about how to interpret "the many" and whether it does or should in every case refer to all. Let me know your thoughts.

The Uses

All four instances of the adjective πολύς in v.15 and 19 that are used substantively to refer to "the many" people are articular masculine plural forms, three being nominative case (οἱ πολλοὶ), with the second articular version in v.15 an accusative case (τοὺς πολλοὺς) as the object of the preposition εἰς ("to").

Two instances of the anarthrous dative singular neuter are found in v.15 and v.17 as part of the comparison constructions there (πολλῷ μᾶλλον; "much more"), working as adjectives adding the descriptive emphasis of "much" to μᾶλλον's "more."

A final instance in v.17 is an anarthrous πολλῶν μᾶλλον (genitive plural; neuter here, since it is paired with the neuter noun παραπτωμάτων, "trespasses"). It is functioning to describe the extent of the trespasses.

Two Significant Points
First, the articular versions are all being used to contrast a group of people with the "one" (εἷς is found in the genitive singular ἑνὸς, "of one," a total of 12 times, 11 of those in v.15-19 and once back in v.12). The "one" man, whether Adam or Christ, or that man's "one" particular work, trespass or righteous act (v.18; referring back to Christ's death noted in v.6, 8, 10) are being referenced by each use.

Second, the articular versions are specifically being used where they are in juxtaposition to the references to "all" (πάντας, accusative plural of πᾶς; v.12, 18 [x2]). That is, none of the "many" are equal to "all."

Discussion of Your Specific Points
"The many" is an indistinct way of referring to a group. The Greek's would easily pick up, as we do in English, the contrast of one to many. But the term allows for a flexibility of addressing a number between "one" and "all" without being too specific, nor necessarily having one reference of "the many" be of equal numerical value to another reference of "the many."

The first "the many" of v.15 does not, in fact, mean "all," for two reasons. First, there is One in particular, Jesus Christ, who did not die "through" or "by" one man's trespass, but rather because He chose to die (cf. Jn 10:15-18). Second, the verb is aorist indicative (past tense), so the reference, strictly speaking, is to those who have indeed physically died already (such as v.14 emphasized, but not limited to just that group). The "much more" that follows is not a mathematical reference of a greater number of "the many," but a greater effect that occurs by the action of Christ versus Adam.

The references to "the many" are not tied to specific previous groups in v.15. Again, it is indistinct. However, the second reference in v.19 does tie back to v.17, where one must receive grace and the gift of righteousness (the latter only coming by faith, so Romans 4) in order to be included as one of "the many" who "will be made righteous" in v.19.

So here is how it works out that Christ's effect is "much more" than Adam's:

Adam sinned, so the penalty of death is upon all men (v.12), and many have already died because of it (v.15), and all but Christ were made sinners (v.19; Christ was made to be sin for us, but was not made a sinner [2 Cor 5:21; cf. Rom 8:3; 1 Jn 3:5]).

Christ incarnated in order to die (Heb 2:14), to partake of the penalty of mankind (1 Pet 3:18), and was obedient to the death of the cross (Phil 2:8). In v.15 it outlines this payment was an expression of the grace of God, which v.18 clarifies had an effect upon all men (just as Adam's affected all men) by giving justification for life, that is justification for all men to be resurrected from the penalty of death. So at this point, Christ's work equals Adam's work in effect, as all people will be resurrected (cf. Jn 5:29; Acts 24:15). But His work also opened the door for a further gift by grace (v.15), the gift of righteousness (v.17), given to many men (v.19), that is, those that would believe. So Christ's work becomes "much more" in its effects than Adam's, because it also brings righteousness to believers, and ultimately for them, reigning in the resurrected life (v.17) eternally (v.21).

For a more detailed discussion of this passage arguing these points and more, see pages 288-321 of "Pananastasism—A Penal Substitutionary Model of a Definite Universal Atonement" (Ph.D. Diss.; Piedmont International University, 2015).

Conclusion
"The many" allows an indistinct number between the "one" and the "all" found elsewhere in verses 12-19. The "much more" does not expand the number of people, but rather the greater effect (both reversing and improving) by the work of the "one" man Christ over the "one" man Adam.


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Robert

 2018/12/14 6:32Profile
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 Re:

Mak, to answer your question back to me, I think "grace" in this passage of Romans 5:15-17 refers to "the gift" which further on in the passage refers to "the gift of righteousness". Thus, if "the many" in the second part of Romans 5:15 refers to "all", then by equivalence, "all receive the grace of "righteousness" through Christ.

So, we can I think conclude a couple of things.
First, we could say "the many" means every single man which then means every single man receives the gift or grace of righteousness. I don't think that is what it means of course and I know you don't either.

Second, we could conclude that "the many" does not mean all but is a reference to a group so that those in Adam die which is in fact all, but those who are in Christ receive the gift ( not potentially but as the text says actually ) which is many and of course is all for those who are in Christ.

Third, we could conclude that the many is all in both instances but whereas in Adam all actually die, but the second reference is that all receive the "potential" of the gift of righteousness. I don't think this is the right conclusion though because the text speaks of "the many" actually and in fact receiving the gift of righteousness.

I don't know if any of that is helpful to the discussion much less right. Hopefully so though.


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Robert

 2018/12/14 6:45Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

Thank you Robert for granting me the benefit of not being a universalist, for I am definitely not advocating that.

I agree with the conclusion. Paul is comparing the dynamic effect of Christ's grace to the effect of sin. There is no doubt he was saying that the same group has encountered both. The grace of Christ abounded to the same "many" with greater power than the affect of Adam's transgression. The grace BY the one Man - the Last Adam - super abounds beyond the affect of the first man.

Please, in your own words, attempt to explain what you believe Paul meant by this.

mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2018/12/14 6:54Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
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 Re:

Hi Mak, I read the author of the piece I posted to be saying that the grace of righteousness is given to those who believe, "all men" in that group and not to all men generally as you seem to conclude from the article. Am I not reading him and you correctly?


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Robert

 2018/12/14 7:01Profile





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