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deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1831
Hemel Hempstead

 Using worldy methods to bring in the unsaved

I had to move today because a group called potter's House was in the usual place I evangelize the rap music was so bad that you can hear it up the street, it is not pleasant

1 John 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

It is so hard to think that it produces many false converts which saddens my heart and that associate Christianity with this type of thing when biblical Christianity is lost as they communicate a different message that one in the Bible


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/4/28 12:36Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 670
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re: Using worldy methods to bring in the unsaved

I'm curious as to what they were preaching through their music/ message? If it's the same ministry operated by T. D. Jakes, that's scary.

However, I do believe God can use rap music, if it's Christ centered.

T.R.U.C.E. is a rap group Nicky Cruz formed to reach young people in ghettos and slums. They preach the gospel and many people are saved, like gangbangers, prostitutes and drug addicts.


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Nigel Holland

 2018/4/28 14:05Profile
TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 533


 Re: Using worldy methods to bring in the unsaved

Sadly, I am more familiar with what you speak of than I wish I was. I joined an new church here closer to me a while back and felt comfortable in it. At first, I didn't know how to categorize them. They weren't legalistic, not charismatic, not 'evangelical reformed' or any other label I could pin them with. Over time I realized they are definitely 'seeker friendly' but not an extreme example of it. Much of what bothers me is not what is spoken from the pulpit but WHAT IS NOT SPOKEN!

The pastor wants to see many souls brought into the kingdom but is using human reason and means to make it happen. He is against anything that looks like legalism or being 'holier than thou'. I get that and I also would want to avoid that. Unfortunately, he chooses to avoid preaching against sin (in unbelievers or believers lives). I'm sure if you pressed him he would acknowledge that he's against it but you sure don't hear anything in the messages about it probably because he is afraid of being legalistic or judgemental or 'throwing stones'.

So when at the end of the messages rolls around and an evangelistic appeal is made, the emphasis is on forgiveness and the free gift of God in Jesus. I don't think they say the word 'repentance' but perhaps say one sentence about the need to turn away from the 'old life'. They point you to 'believer's baptism'. I agree with this, it is not a criticism. Nobody is referred to as 'sinner' or 'lost' but rather, 'unchurched' as if our greatest need is to get in a church (rolls my eyes). The pastor actually made this statement in a message: "I don't want to be in a church of Christians trying to be better Christians". I don't think every message should be nothing but talking about sanctification and being conformed into the image of Christ but I do think it is important and should perhaps occupy perhaps 25-30% of the preaching/teaching.

So they go from receiving Jesus and forgiveness immediately to service and evangelism without any proper 'discipleship training'. I do think even baby Christians can start witnessing and telling their story to others and God can use that. I believe baby Christians can start doing social gospel type service. I am just dismayed at how getting busy with social gospel type service is done in lieu of any proper study of deeper aspects of New Testament living dealing with full-fledged discipleship. But then that would involve messages about 'dying to self and the flesh'. Most people have problems with that and because it is *possible* that someone could feel condemned with that type of message, they are avoided.

Also, every other week or so the band begins service by playing a secular song (that does not have any obvious sinful lyrics). When Prince died they played Purple Rain. The other week they played All Along The Watchtower. They played We Are The Champions when the local sports team won it all. And this is to make 'unchurched' people feel that we are not 'religious'. And if what they mean by 'religious' means legalistic, judgemental or holier than thou I would wholeheartedly agree. But sometimes I feel that some here think 'religious' also includes showing or expressing love, devotion or piety to an uncomfortable level and it might 'turn off' the unchurched. It seems they love nothing more than to find something that gets close to the line between sinful and OK and stay just this side of OK. They want the world to think of Christians as being like MORAL people of the world but who have an add-on who is Jesus. But we don't want you to think we're weird about it or go overboard into fanaticism. But hey, we do all sorts of social gospel style outreach and service stuff so everything's cool don't you know.

Oh, and church is always cancelled on Super Bowl Sunday. The pastor said "nobody show up anyway" which is an exaggeration but is thrown out there to justify it. And in 2016 when Christmas was on Sunday, no church on that day either. When the local sports team had 'opening day', that Sunday was Team Day at church and a lot of folks wore sport jerseys and hats to church. Again, all of this is done to appeal to the 'unchurched' and make them feel comfortable among us Christians who aren't 'religious'.

Before coming here I had come from a Charismatic church but over the years that movement has lost its way in significant areas. There are many wonderful Charismatics but the leadership won't speak against errors within it. The devil has infiltrated it with lots of goofy teachings and practices and nobody will stand up and call them out on it. That is why I left.

There are conservative traditional churches who are cessationist. Some are legalistic, some not. The services are tightly orchestrated and cannot be considered 'led by the Spirit'. I grew up in these type churches and to me, they just seem dead. Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. The people are mostly sincere and earnest.

So of the 3 types of churches in America: Charismatic, conservative traditional, and seeker friendly, they all have faults. There are things that really bug me about all 3. And I guess being in this seeker friendly church has opened my eyes and I actually think I despise the focus and means in seeker friendly church more than the other 3. There, I said it. I'm leaving and I don't know where I'm headed. Pray for me for wisdom here. Thanks!

-Daniel

 2018/4/28 14:53Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5533
NC, USA

 Re:

I agree Nigel- certain youth in certain areas only relate to hip hop/rap.

If the lyrics have a godly message and people are listening, that has to be a good thing.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
1 Corinthians 9:22-23

I get where Dom is coming from because so much of rap music is vile to the core so the issue is whether the style can be redeemed by godly lyrics. That debate has been around a long time.


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Todd

 2018/4/28 14:55Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1831
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

My dad was originally a drug addict and before then my dad was planning to open a drug rehab centre in the UK as he got marvellous saved , I got saved out from the world.
I do not want to live that lifestyle in church.
This is why I think it is fundementally wrong for a church to promote worldly methods to bring in the unsaved.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power


What abhors me is the amount of false Christian converts it produces

My problem is I had this when I was younger trying to relate to us using worldly methods whilst ignoring us as individuals or even answering are questions

Phil Fernandez I think states it is like using methods that the world has already dumped

1 John 2:15
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him

I don't think this verse exists or is even being preached in the church anymore

When I preach on the street it is to save souls and not through my own power as I am weak , Jeremiah and Noah preached to nations and the world when only a few were saved

To me being more faithful in preaching is good , I do not mind changing things such as tracts or tech


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/5/1 4:13Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1831
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

I have found there church website http://www.pottershouse.co.uk/about-us
But there is no sermons or anything as doctrinal statements can be misleading as people just tend to copy and paste them

What I find so strange is that they ship people in who are not even local to the town to do a concert then leave and then do the same thing like a month later

They are decieved and to me who is there week after week in hemel , just laughs becuase it is so worldly and they are not really commited.

They are not linked to t d Jake's as he is a modialist

Using rap or hip hop just does not work and it is not biblical , the thing is the music was absolutely terrible it was not even good rap or hip hop as you could not hear the lyrics as the sound was terrible .

To me using the bait and switch tactic just does not work


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/5/1 4:31Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1523


 Re: Using worldy methods to bring in the unsaved

Hi
I think we have to define what a "worldly method" is first.
I think if it portrays the biblical message clearly and without any other message included then it isnt worldly.

For instance Rap could be used if it had a Godly Message.
The problem with Christian Music is an unusual one:
The world doesnt listen to worship music,so its not effective in reaching the world.
So worship music is only good for the Church right?
Not exactly either because Christian Musicians and producers have long since started making their worship music sound worldy so it will become more attractive and in doing so have forgotten who worship music is intended for i.e The Church.
If you are with me alot modern Christian music is neither good for the goose or good for the gander!

FOOTNOTE:The production quality of the songs Christian Musicians and producers make is very good ,its just that the songs themselves are not near the quality of the worlds music because for the most its just uninspired filler.urs staff

 2018/5/1 5:34Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1831
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

The world doesnt listen to worship music,so its not effective in reaching the world.
So worship music is only good for the Church right?

Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

This is the whole point the church is suppose to be a sanctuary from the world , in the Bible we commanded to preach the word to reach the lost so it not our own methods
God reaches the lost , i would say worship music is good for church.

Love not the world nor the things in the world becuase the love of the father is not in you

If I am rescued from things such as nightclubs and drink and drugs , I do not want to go to church and hear the same music in the church to lead me back to that lifestyle , this is why the church has got to be other

This what so sickens me about the worldlyness in the church , as people stay in there sins


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/5/2 5:25Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1523


 Re:

Hi Delta
I think thats my point the worship music we are getting needs to be straight good quality worship music(most of it isnt)
and if we want to reach the lost with Christian music then it shouldnt be worship music and it should be the very best and inspired from heaven

ur qoute:
God reaches the lost , i would say worship music is good for church.

Love not the world nor the things in the world becuase the love of the father is not in you

If I am rescued from things such as nightclubs and drink and drugs , I do not want to go to church and hear the same music in the church to lead me back to that lifestyle , this is why the church has got to be other

 2018/5/2 19:12Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5533
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey Staff I was curious about who you think puts out high quality worship music- I realize this is rather subjective but I was wondering who you liked (so I can check it out if I don’t know them).


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Todd

 2018/5/2 20:01Profile





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