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 Re:

So Todd, The Lord appeared and gathered all of His people? But then you dont believe that and dismiss it merely as "hyper literalism" and hyperbole from Jesus ( claims I find scary and audacious) do you believe that Jesus is coming back at all then if He has already come? And if by some inconsitentcy of your own argument you do, in what fashion will He return? I have honestly never heard the argument that most of what Jesus said, or the most profound statements that He made in Matthew 24 was merely hyperbole and figures of speech. Maybe you could go through all the Words of Jesus and tell us what He really meant as the plain reading of His words, according to your estimations, cannot be depended upon and takes someone to point out areas of "hyper literalism." ( A phrase I have not heard before) ..........bro Frank

 2018/4/14 16:17









 Re:

I am still waiting on your reply Todd, I am genuinely interested to hear your position on the questions posed to you............bro Frank

 2018/4/15 12:35
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Yes Frank, it does sound quite extreme Preterism what Todd is saying.

Todd, are we to assume you are saying the end times have come and gone? What days have we been living in since AD70? Has Christ set up His kngdom on earth already and we just don't realise it and how peaceful and righteous life on earth has been for the last two millenia? Is this as good as it gets!? Any chance of a new heaven and earth as promised?


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Dave

 2018/4/15 13:20Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I made up the term hyper literalism but it seems you understand my meaning.

What did Jesus mean when he said this before the Sanhedrin:

64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Matthew 26:64

Who was he talking to? Who is “you?”

And what did He mean when he said:

34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until ALL these things have happened.
Matthew 24:34

Who was he talking to?

People who say he was talking to us today are saying he was not being literal.

And yes, I absolutely believe Jesus is coming again, yet future. I am decidedly not a full preterist. I just believe that Mt 24 is about the coming judgment in 70 AD. Jesus was speaking prophetically so He was using the language of a prophet.

ADD: why is it so offensive to see that Jesus used hyperbole or non literal language?

“34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:34


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Todd

 2018/4/15 13:28Profile









 Re:

I dont mean to pro-long this Todd but you did not answer my questions. Here it is again, if you could please just answer them it would shine a lot of light on where you are coming from...........

"So Todd, The Lord appeared and gathered all of His people?"

If you say no to this, your argument about "this generation," would make no sense. Of course, if you say yes to this it would make no sense either. The obvious conclusion is that you are wrong in your assertion about "this generation," which was clearly talking to the generation that would see all these things come to pass............bro Frank

 2018/4/15 13:44
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

“When Jerusalem shall be reduced to ashes, and that wicked nation cut off and rejected, then shall the Son of man send his ministers with the trumpet of the gospel, and they shall gather together his elect of the several nations from the four corners of heaven: so that God shall not want a church...”

John Lightfoot(1602-1675, Commentary on Matthew)
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Verse 31
And he shall send his angels,.... Not the angels, i.e. ministering spirits, so called, not from their nature, but their office, as being sent forth by God and Christ; but men angels, or messengers, the ministers and preachers of the Gospel, whom Christ would call, qualify, and send forth into all the world of the Gentiles, to preach his Gospel, and plant churches there still more, when that at Jerusalem was broken up and dissolved. These are called "angels", because of their mission, and commission from Christ, to preach the Gospel; and because of their knowledge and understanding in spiritual things; and because of their zeal, diligence, and watchfulness,

With a great sound of a trumpet, meaning the Gospel; see Isaiah 27:13 so called in allusion either to the silver trumpets which Moses was ordered to make of one piece, and use them for the calling of the assembly, the journeying of the camps, blowing an alarm for war, and on their solemn and festival days, Numbers 10:1. The Gospel being rich and precious, all of a piece, useful for gathering souls to Christ, and to his churches; to direct saints in their journey to Canaan's land; to encourage them to fight the Lord's battles; and is a joyful sound, being a sound of love, grace, and mercy, peace, pardon, righteousness, life and salvation, by Christ: or else so called, in allusion to the trumpet blown in the year of "jubilee"; which proclaimed rest to the land, liberty to prisoners, a release of debts, and restoration of inheritances; as the Gospel publishes rest in Christ, liberty to the captives of sin, Satan, and the law, a payment of debts by Christ, and a release from them upon that, and a right and title to the heavenly inheritance. The Vulgate Latin reads it, "with a trumpet, and a great voice"; and so does Munster's Hebrew Gospel; and so it was read in four of Beza's copies:

and they shall gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other; that is, by the ministration of the Gospel; the Spirit of God accompanying it with his power, and grace, the ministers of the word should gather out of the world unto Christ, and to his churches, such persons as God had, before the foundation of the world, chosen in Christ, unto salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth; wherever they are under the whole heavens, from one end to another; or in any part of the earth, though at the greatest distance; for in Mark 13:27 it is said, "from the uttermost part of the earth, to the uttermost part of the heaven". The Jews say, that "in the after redemption (i.e. by the Messiah) all Israel shall be gathered together by the sound of a trumpet, from the four parts of the world.

——Gill’s exposition of Matthew

Obviously other commentators state differently, some say through v 22 pertains to 70 ad and remainder to the 2nd coming; I see no clear break where Jesus said he was shifting gears but maybe he was.


_________________
Todd

 2018/4/15 14:41Profile









 Re:

With all due respect Todd, I was asking you a very simple question and you give me a long cut and paste. Sooo, one last time ...........

"So Todd, The Lord appeared and gathered all of His people?"

If you say no to this, your argument about "this generation," would make no sense. Of course, if you say yes to this it would make no sense either. The obvious conclusion is that you are wrong in your assertion about "this generation," which was clearly talking to the generation that would see all these things come to pass.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.(Mat 24:34-36)

 2018/4/15 15:06
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

The cut and paste is to show how those verses you bring up can be interpreted. I said that other commentators say different. You obviously don’t agree with the commentaries I referenced which is perfectly fine with me.

The answer to your question is that the church grew fairly explosively in that generation.

You insist that the words “the elect” mean every Christian that ever lived, therefore you cannot accept that the prophecy occurred in “this generation.” The two commentators explain that term in the sense of those early Christians reached by the spread of the gospel message by its ministers in that generation.

This isn’t a huge deal to me; I know Jesus will be coming back; we have been in the last days since Christ ascended.


_________________
Todd

 2018/4/15 15:35Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Todd said...This isn’t a huge deal to me; I know Jesus will be coming back; we have been in the last days since Christ ascended.

Exactly! and why anyone wants to try and pin down a time or world happenings, is way beyond me.


_________________
Bill

 2018/4/15 16:01Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

Again, there are certain definite things that scripture reveal that must take place before the event of Christ's second coming. They don't pinpoint the day or the hour but they pinpoint specific events that will take place before His coming. If we don't know the day or the hour we can know for sure things that must occur before He comes that will enable us to know with certainty that the day is indeed fast approaching. It is a bit baffling that since it is believed and said we don't know the day or the hour that we in turn pay no attention to the things we can know.


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David Winter

 2018/4/15 16:10Profile





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