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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Pope Francis says there is no hell?

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drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 610
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Fudge said that the scripture about "the smoke of their torment ascending up forever" proves the wicked will cease to exist and only the smoke will keep ascending. That is a pretty weak argument. Smoke dissipates. Seems to me he's "Fudging" a little bit.

Todd you have not addressed Blaine and I when we tried to explain what the word eternal means in reference to the eternal state of the just and wicked. The word in Greek is "aionios" and it means age lasting or forever. Like Blaine and I said, you can't have it both ways; heaven and hell are both either forever or they are temporary.


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Nigel Holland

 2018/3/31 9:27Profile
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Posts: 5244
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 Re:

In regard to smoke rising forever we have to ask ourselves if the smoke rising from Edom's destruction described in Is. 34 really still rising. If not, why not? This scripture says that it is. Further, the smoke of the torment is not the same as the torment itself. The smoke from Sodom ascended well after its inhabitants were dead (Gen. 19:27).

In regard to everlasting life and everlasting punishment you yourself said that the word ainios can mean age-lasting. Further, a person who is extinguished is extinguished forever although the fire/smoke may continue after their extinguishment. I don't see the problem you raise in that passage. A person who is executed via capital punishment is dead permanently, at least as far as walking around on the earth is concerned. Similarly, a person that God snuffs out of existence after an appropriate time spent in the LOF is snuffed out for all eternity.

I want to reiterate here that I am not arguing that eternal conscious torment may not be the correct view-- it certainly may be. But if you truly do research the other evangelical views you will find very good biblical support for those views as well.

For example, the essay by Fudge that I posted is a very short abridgement of his much more complete work "The Fire that Consumes." Clark Pinnock and John Stott also have full scholarly works on the subject.

As I previously said, Greg does not like this topic debated so please don't ask me any more questions; any question or objection you have has been amply addressed by the authors I have noted, as well as many others. Steve Gregg has a very helpful book that lays out the arguments for and against the three main views (Traditionalism, conditional immortality and Restorationism). He addresses all the passages used by each camp and provides the pro and con arguments for each passage. https://www.amazon.com/All-Want-Know-About-Hell/dp/1401678300/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1522512118&sr=8-2&keywords=steve+gregg


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Todd

 2018/3/31 12:03Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1062
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Todd: I read Edward Fudge's article twice. The second time slowly seeking to obtain his intended meanings.

He is an annihilationist, but unlike the soul sleepers has sinners suffering for a time until their final annihilation.

His 3 point attack on the traditionalist view was well put together, but as I read, I realized he had truth in his hand, but put it down to take up something more suitable.

In my opinion he also committed a common mistake in bible study and that is to take OT allegorical references and define them in a way that New Testament references must shed their revelation and revert to OT analogy. I've been in numerous debates with others when this reversion was being used. It's error lay in dismissing the reality and substance of New Testament teaching in favor of analogous OT teaching in symbols and allegory.

This is his most clever usage of the tool when in the final analysis, the fate of the wicked is annihilation ( non-existence).

Then there were selective usages of aionion ( eternal) and it's 6 times usage as (age or period), yet ( at least in this article) dismissing the dozens of direct correlation 'eternal' life with death.
Now, not to be counterpunched, he merely denotes eternal death as annihilation to solve that correlation.

In the end, I see a mixing of perspectives, the one from the Saints point of view "The wicked die and are no more" Meaning their days are numbered only to be annihilated later. And the Sinners perspective "Fear him, after he has killed has power to cast into hell".
He intermixes them so for the sinner, the fearful warnings of wrath, judgment and doom are only a front.
There is no substance to them, (thanks to helpful OT texts used to allegorize-away actual conscious punishment)
So, for the sinner, he is to view it as a saint in that, "oh yea, I will be broken as a pot, I will be a dead carcass, my power will come to nothing"
So, in this very fashion, all fear of such a judgment is removed because at best the sinner might spend some time suffering, but it all ends with a big dramatic show for the saints and the sinners don't really feel a thing.

The real problems with his assertions lay in the unproven "torment for a time" and then annihilation sequencing...which means he's not really able to escape completely from conscious suffering and the idea that allegory was ( edit to add ) NOT, John the Revelator's true intent, rather, his was substance or true to being.
He made no mention in this short article that since death and hell are 'in' the lake of fire, those who were not written in the lambs book of life will be with 'death' and 'hell' eternally.
You cannot non-exist and yet eternally be 'with' hell or 'with' death 'in' a lake.
In short, you have an empty lake of fire for all of these who enter do so under the same verbiage, meaning what is analogous to the sinner must be necessity be so for the Devil.

You need not respond, I only wanted to let you know I did read the article and I did give your perspective some time and consideration without any cart-blanc dismissal.

This returns me to my original offering, that in the end justice is not served at the judgment throne of God, in fact you will receive vastly greater justice in our corrupt world courts than you will before the "Holy and Just God".
But, I hold no such blasphemous position, God will not analogously show his wrath, nor will he figuratively punish the wicked. Punishment of a non-existent being is a categorical error inconsistent with an all-wise God.
The terrible show of wrath, anger and hatred for wickedness all ends in the anti-climax of a persons transformation to non-entity.
This kind of justice is a perversion even among perverse men, how can I attribute this to God? I cannot and will not.


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Marvin

 2018/3/31 13:30Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1775
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

I have read these people you destroy the rules of Hermeneutics of New Testament Priority if you interpret an Old Testament passage to interpret a New Testament Passage it is simply wrong. Other proponent of this view are people like Rob bell, John Stott and most evangelicals have put him outside of the Christian Faith as this is a fundamental to the Christian Faith. I have been trying to find D A Carsons rules of Hermeneutics as if you do Theology it is standard 101 to know this!

Dr Phil Fernandes debated one of his proponents ! The Jehovahs Witnesses that was one of the first views they believed.

Chris Date and Phil Fernandes Debate Hell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaPz33dVPvc

If there is no Hell, there is no reason for God to save sinners, there is no Justice for Evil in this world! As people can do anything they want because they will simply get annihilated!
The Jehovah witnesses actually take the passage the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched actually out of there bible!

Mark 9:43
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched

This view is not something a christian can debate on as Jesus talked on in extensively!

Luke 16

Luke 16:19-31 King James Version (KJV)

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 16:19-31 King James Version (KJV)

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18:9
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

You cannot believe in Eternal Hell and Heaven at the same time as the same greek word is used.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The thing is this view is whether you are a Christian or part of a cult it is not a light subject!

At the moment I have been working in the hospital I have been seeing dead bodies most days they have been convered in blue coverings so you cant see that they are bodies.

I walk through ICU which is where people are dying and know that they will either go to Heaven or Hell and God has given them a chance. It is not a matter of opinion as God created us he has the right to take us to Heaven or Hell he has provided a way through his son by dying on the cross for our sin and raising from the dead giving us hope that when we die we will eternally be with him. If we do not believe Hell is eternal, why should we believe that Heaven is, God is more real than me.

If we reject that there is Eternal conscious torment as Hell we reject the reason for Jesus dying on the cross for our sin as we are simply annihilated, there is no justice.
Noone is rewarded and noone is judged. God is a unloving God if there is no Hell. Because he has not dealt with the problem of Evil as that is where God deals with the problem of Evil with an eternal Hell!
Rapist, Murders and others do not get justice, Hitler does not get justice if there is no Hell.
God created Heaven he has the right and he has provided only one way to get there and that is through his son if you reject him , eternal concius torment in Hell is the only option as he is God and King.
There is something called Regicide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regicide
where you commit a crime against the king, killing the king that is the highest crime according to the government now, hope about the king of kings and lord of Lords, the angels did not escape Hell and they sinned yet God sent them to Hell! Jesus has provided a way of salvation for us!

Where is the fear of God in this forum,

Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God
There is nothing that keeps wicked men, at any one moment, out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God.
http://edwards.yale.edu/archive?path=aHR0cDovL2Vkd2FyZHMueWFsZS5lZHUvY2dpLWJpbi9uZXdwaGlsby9nZXRvYmplY3QucGw/Yy4yMTo0Ny53amVv

We can believe in Pink Elephants can fly out of Nowhere but Heaven and Hell are more real than the computer keyboard that I am typing on, If God created the heavens and earth, he created those places aswell!


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Dominic Shiells

 2018/3/31 14:03Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5244
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 Re:

Marvin- thanks for your response and your valid points.


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Todd

 2018/3/31 14:49Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1062
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Concerning other authors.

I appreciate John Stott, Ive read his works and appreciate his ministry and preaching. Yes, I do disagree with his conclusion about Hell. Now, I've not read Stott's work on hell, only read exerpts and 'other' authors speaking of Stott's position.

Ive read Rob Bell's book which I found to be a patent journey into heresy, he is comfortable with heterodoxy and that kind of 'free thinking' no doubt made him popular with millenials and younger folks. He has a way of presenting the unorthodox in a way that makes you feel you need to buy a ticket to board his Titanic and experience a promised successful voyage. His book Love wins, displays a god that does not have a great value upon his law, his Son or his own judgments.

As to Clark Pinnock, he really grinds my nose. From his arrogant attacks on reformed theology to his embracing of Open Theism; I couldn't read him without feeling like I was taking a seminar with David Koresh or some other cultist.

Over the last 2 decades the body of Christ has witnessed the emergence of various highly educated scholars that obtain their praise and position by reason of calling 'traditional' meta-narratives into question and then offering alternatives.

Post-modernism is geared to remove the meta-narrative and adopt any relativistic option that gives more room to private and public sins without reproach.
The fact that God, hell, salvation, homosexuality, gender, feminism, children, authority and the Churches poor standing in public opinion are all spun into attacks within and without the body of Christ do show God's judgment upon the Church's failings...and the coming cleansing and purifying of it. God has a way of turning the sword of the enemy against them and the net that is spread for us, they fall into.

It's a good thing when the Pope makes such clear declarations about Hell and gender issues; his candid admissions make it where the youngest and most unlearned believer can steer clear of him and his teachings. Those who are already seduced by the babylonish imitation will likely not register a second look.


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Marvin

 2018/3/31 15:58Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
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NC, USA

 Re:

Rob Bell argues from emotion- I am not a fan.

People who argue from scripture, even if it may go against traditional understanding, are worth at least listening to (or reading).

After all, I left my "Left Behind" eschatology because I read and listened to voluminous teachings on alternative views. Before I actually came to realize there were alternative views to the Pre-trib rapture, I had no idea that such views even existed. Why? Tradition- pure and simple. But now I am convinced that "left behind" tradition held by practically every Christian I know personally is wrong. And they have no idea that there are even alternate views out there.

That is the danger of simply relying on tradition.


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Todd

 2018/3/31 17:35Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 610
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

I've said it, Dominic has said it, if you take hell out of the Bible you have no gospel, nothing to save men from.

And like I've also said, these men like Rob Bell and Edward Fudge are powerless; the pablum they feed you might sound nice to carnal ears but it has no substance to it. Give me men like Jonathan Edwards and David Wilkerson, those are true men of God, men that love people enough to be unpopular, to warn sinners there is a penalty for their evil ways. They saw men's lives changed by the power of Christ. Rob Bell and his ilk produce nothing but false converts, people that are comfortable in their sins. They are dogs. I can't use strong enough language. Didn't Paul warn us people would turn to doctrines of devils in the last days?


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Nigel Holland

 2018/3/31 22:53Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1935


 Re: pinnock-fudgecicle




The two men (Pinnock and Fudge), as Marvin already has noted, whose books are being appealed to by Todd on the subject of hell, are "Open Theists", believing in what is known as "the openness of God."

A primer on "Open Theism" is below. After reading it, you decide if you'd trust anything these men wrote on the subject of hell, or any subject for that matter.


“Open theism is a sub-Christian theological construct which claims that God’s highest goal is to enter into a reciprocal relationship with man. In this scheme, the Bible is interpreted without any anthropomorphisms – that is, all references to God’s feelings, surprise and lack of knowledge are literal and the result of His choice to create a world where He can be affected by man’s choices. God’s exhaustive knowledge does not include future free will choices by mankind because they have not yet occurred.”

One of the leading spokesmen of open theism, Clark Pinnock, in describing how libertarian freedom trumps God’s omniscience says, “Decisions not yet made do not exist anywhere to be known even by God. They are potential–yet to be realized but not yet actual. God can predict a great deal of what we will choose to do, but not all of it, because some of it remains hidden in the mystery of human freedom … The God of the Bible displays an openness to the future (i.e. ignorance of the future) that the traditional view of omniscience simply cannot accommodate.” (Pinnock, “Augustine to Arminius, ” 25-26)


Defining Characteristics

Open theism is characterized in several ways:

God does not have exhaustive knowledge of the future. Indeed, He cannot know certain future events because the future exists only as possibility. God is unable to see what depends on the choices of free will agents simply because this future does not yet exist, so it is unknowable. In this way open theists attempt to reconcile this doctrine with God’s ominiscience.

God takes risks. Because God cannot know the future, He takes risks in many ways – creating people, giving them gifts and abilities, and so on. Where possibilities exist, so does risk.
God learns. Because God does not know the future exhaustively, He learns, just as we do.

God is reactive. Because He is learning, God is constantly reacting to the decisions we make.

God makes mistakes. Because He is learning and reacting, always dealing with limited information, God can and does make errors in judgment which later require re-evaluation.
God can change His mind. When God realizes He has made an error in judgment or that things did not unfold as He supposed, He can change His mind.

The most important thing to note is that God knows the future only as it is not dependent on human, free-will decisions. God does not know what any free-will agents (ie humans) will do, because those decisions do not yet exist and God cannot know what does not exist. God decided, in Creation, that He would limit Himself in this way in order to give complete freedom to human beings. Therefore, God does not know or control the future – He learns from our decisions and constantly adapts as necessary. He often needs to change His mind or re-evaluate His options as the future unfolds.

 2018/4/1 7:15Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 610
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Thanks for that Savannah. I don't trust anything these men say, they clearly have a wrong view of God's nature and personality.


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Nigel Holland

 2018/4/1 9:12Profile





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