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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sin

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BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 627
Australia

 Re:


Todd, If I were to give you a reply as per your requirements I will be going the way of worldly wisdom. But I will still like to give you a reply. Will do so tomorrow as I have run out of time today.


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Jade

 2018/1/13 7:31Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5345
NC, USA

 Re:

Haha take your time!


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Todd

 2018/1/13 10:13Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 627
Australia

 Re:


OK....reply when free.


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Jade

 2018/1/14 3:33Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1079
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

While we are trying to dig out a library from a few obscure verses on Cain's failing sacrifices. Allow me to question another assumption.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I conjecture it is a law tree, tree of morality or ethics. This tree is God given and God designed. In other words it is holy, right and true.

I do not see anywhere the tree is alluded to as a tree of human wisdom or a tree of natural knowledge like nature, biology etc. There are no allusions to the tree being anything but holy.

My concern is our present (and mine over the years) interpretation make this tree into a 'human wisdom tree'. But God didn't design fallen-sinful-arrogant-human-concepts. God's actions are always pure; any wisdom God has is altogether holy, perfect, righteous and glorious. There is no knowledge of good or evil that God has which is not altogether perfect.
Our preachers and I myself have said (in times past) it is something other than what it is purported to be in scripture. But recently I have been moving more and more away from this idea simply because it's a confusion. ( at least to me)

The law is good and holy Paul said in Rom 7, but our sinfulness causes to at least two things to occur in relating to the good and evil= God's moral standard.
1. We amplify our sins because the law just exposes the sinfulness of our condition, it has no power remedy the sinful nature. (this is what happened after eating of the tree, they knew they were naked and were afraid)
2. We attempt to deceive ourselves by using the moral standard of God to judge other as to their failures and we judge ourselves as victims of the deeds of others
(so Adam did....Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. )

I am attempting to clarify two things, namely the sin and the command. Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The Romans text tends to shed more light on the workings that occurred from eating of that tree rather than the human wisdom interpretation.
But someone will say "yea Marv, but isn't it human wisdom to hide from God, blame others or justify yourself by the law?"
Yes it is, but this is why I quoted the Romans 7:13 text.
Eve need beguiling= to seduce or lead astray before she became willing to eat. Because Satan knew that sin would work death in Eve by what was good.
Like all things Satan seeks to corrupt, he takes that which is good and twists it into what is evil, human wisdom is never of itself something evil, it only becomes evil when it is combined with the sinful nature willing to use that wisdom for its own ends and not the glory of God.
This very thing the Jews did with the law; what was the crowing point of the law for the Jew? "righteousness by the keeping of the law"

Without become tedious on this point, I submit that claiming the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is 'human wisdom' is probably in error. I think more exactly the self-serving human nature attempts to use the tree of morality for justifying its own means and its own ends. Such as humanity does the world over. One thing is not the other. God's morality and ethics are perfect and pure, mankinds perverse use of that standard modified again and again and again combined with human autonomy gives rise to everything from atheism to every false religion in the world. The bad fruit growing from the bad soil of the human heart does not prove the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is itself evil and corrupt.

The temptation as I said before was for Eve to get an 'improvement' from that tree, not realizing she needed no improvement and all the wisdom to become everything that God wanted was resident right there in himself...and available from him by revelation, not helping-themselves to what was forbidden in order to be 'better'. They didnt need the morality tree, because they were perfect and the forbidding of it was to preserve their perfection and the direct revelation they could have from God himself.

Submitted for your discernment.


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Marvin

 2018/1/15 0:50Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 627
Australia

 Re:


Hi Todd,

On second thoughts I have decided not to give you a reply as what I wanted to say is really a digression from the topic of this thread.

Blessings


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Jade

 2018/1/15 8:01Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 627
Australia

 Re:


Hi Marvin,

I am trying to follow what you wrote....

Are you equating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil with the law?


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Jade

 2018/1/15 8:03Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1079
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Jade: Yes, the knowledge of good and evil equates to Law or
morality or ethics or blessings or cursings, or righteousness or unrighteousness.

Just an aside.

In the midst of the garden there are two trees, the forbidden one is 'good and evil'...one wonders why the tree of life was banned only after they had sinned?
Probably because in their perfect state they were commandment keepers and therefore had access.

But in Christ Jesus Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


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Marvin

 2018/1/15 11:24Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

What a joy to return and see this thread developing! I’m convinced that we get further ahead by taking time to consider the bigger picture.

Quote:
… from the verse in Hebrews, that Cain's lack of faith was the main issue.



In other words, it’s an issue of works vs faith. Cain was trying to earn God’s favour, Abel trusted in God’s grace. This would support the theme of scripture:
Quote:
The bible does a constant unveiling of the human heart and the character of God …



I’m more inclined to view the Tree of Knowledge, not as a cause of Cain’s sin, but as the experiential outcome of universal sin. I’ll comment on this:

Quote:
The bad fruit growing from the bad soil of the human heart does not prove the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is itself evil and corrupt.

I see this “tree” as a pictorial expression of a state of being, meaning: the the conscious awareness of good and evil, a form of self-consciousness which comes as a result of sin: “Their eyes were opened and they saw their nakedness (something wrong about them).” Gen. 3:7. They became self-conscious. Compare that to our bodily condition: We would not be conscious of good health if there was no such thing as bad health. Apart from bad health, the idea of health would be non-existent in our minds. Sadly, because our eyes are “opened” to the condition of good vs bad health, our consciences are burdened by rules, ideals, whatever it takes to avoid all that bad health that troubles our lives. Is that not true for the spiritual condition as well?

Jade comments:
Quote:
The children who could enter the land were the ones who had no knowledge of good and evil.


Jade, Do you mean that they couldn’t tell the difference between good and evil? I’d agree with that. Still, would you agree that had the experiential knowledge of both good and evil? (Note, I’m using “knowledge” in a different way).

Quote:
...one wonders why the tree of life was banned only after they had sinned?


It’s been said that this tree of life was forbidden because we cannot live eternally in our sinful condition (defiled conscience, lack of innocence, shame-bound, separated from God…). God never provided a way back into the Garden of Eden for eternal life. The Tree of life is in the next life, attained through FAITH, trusting in God’s grace.

Now, applying that to Jade’s question:
Quote:
The text in Gen. 4:7 is: "And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door"

How do you interpret "And if you do not do well" ?



Surely this is about belief, as already noted. God pointed out that if Cain didn’t get a handle on this he would be consumed by it, through his unabated anger (over God rejecting his “works”.)
Cain was a legalist. Isn't that the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?





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Diane

 2018/1/15 15:52Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 627
Australia

 Re:


Marvin,

So as not to be lost in too many words, first:


You said:
“The tree of the knowledge of good and evil…… is holy, right and true.


Gen. 2:17 - but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat……


Question:
If the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is holy, right and true why can’t it be eaten? Wouldn’t Adam and Eve become holy and right if they eat of it?


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Jade

 2018/1/15 17:17Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1079
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Hi Jade, thanks for the question,

I explained why I believe they were forbidden to eat it.

"They were already perfect, there was nothing from that tree that they needed".

In an earlier post I quoted Paul...1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

specifically "...the law is not made for a righteous man"

Adam and Eve were perfect, there was no need for any law, or any knowledge of good and evil = morality seeing as they were already perfectly moral, perfectly righteous and sinless in the sight of God.

This is an important underlying truth about God's law.
The law of God presupposes something about human nature, namely, that it is already sinful, blinded to God's word and willingly disobedient to God. This equates to our sinful nature inherent in all of Adam's prodigy.

God forbid them from touching that tree because there was nothing to be gained by it, the law presupposes sin indwelling and Eve had no 'indwelling sin', nor did she have a sinful nature.
So, in order to protect Eve's righteous understanding of herself she was forbidden. ( there may be other reasons I dont see)

But this is EXACTLY where Satan attacked, it was to presuppose her condition inherently lacked wisdom and godlikeness...and here's the strange part; Why not go directly to God herself? She already had perfect access every moment, but Satan needed Eve to act autonomously (act according to her own will and for her own reasons) to gain a wisdom or god-likenss.

Important side note:

Now, its very important when attempting to understanding biblical truth from events that are designed to show very limited detail that we do not "infer, extrapolate, or conjecture" our way into an encyclopedic quantity of assumptions when there is absolutely no reason for us to do so. It's a dangerous hermeneutic and the upside is rare.

God is the source of wisdom and godliness for us, it has never been our own estimation of ourselves as 'being wise' or godly.

As you can see, the very fall of man is representative of our human natures seeking justification for ourselves by the use of morality and ethics. But God shows us the righteous do not need to justify themselves by any law, God has done that when "in Christ were were justified from all things" and are now 'new creations in Christ Jesus'. But this is an extrapolation from a variety of biblical sources that I can overlay the fall of man so as to recognize again from the beginning of man Satan's quest to bring men to evil by acting autonomously, seeking justification by the law that can only show their sinfulness. For Satan, this is where he wants to end every story, but Genesis is the beginning of the Story of Jesus Christ emerging from the fall of man.


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Marvin

 2018/1/15 18:12Profile





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