But Todd, I thought everything on the net was true. Can we please start a thread on perfect Pastors? O wait.....

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Bill

Arthur:

Those texts you quoted...

can be spun by your dissenters as "Arthur preaches legalism, salvation by works and a false gospel" They can say it because of the emphasis you lay upon (go into strict training). But do you believe for a second you are saved by your works? My guess, it is far from you.

All of those texts you quoted are what takes place from the outworking of God by the indwelling Spirit. Do you think Tim Keller actually believes the Christian life does not include repentance from sin? Salvation by grace? Obedience to Christ? There is nothing in his books that promotes what Dr. Williams is leading us to believe.

What Ive read of Tim Keller reverberates over and over with the gospel, the cross and salvation by a sacrificial atonement. Yet, the way the article depicted Brother Keller you would think the guy is akin to a Mormon Missionary.

Used properly, movie references, using old philosophers, using atheist authors, using old pagan historians are all accessible and perfectly acceptable for the minster of the gospel.

If you do not detect that "guilt by association" subtext in that article, you can just as easily convict the Apostle Paul in Acts 17 of validating some old pagan philosopher, and accordingly condemn him for bringing in pagan philosophy in to the ministry of the gospel. But such thinking is pure nonsense and would be doing God a dis-service.

Now you would think Dr. Williams could easily find heretical teachings from Rob Bell, but no, he's going after those in his own camp who in terms of their ordination ascribe to everything a good Presbyterian would say "yea" to.

I don't see a recovery here for Dr. Williams unless its a retraction. I don't see heresy unless its a predisposition in the writer to view all things with colored glasses.

Ive debated many many of these kind of folks. Well meaning maybe, but off the mark? Absolutely. This same spirit launches attacks at everyone not in their camp. There is in the reformed camp (that fully ascribe to) plenty of guys who will quickly call you a heretic, or false teacher for simply being Arminian in theology. While I don't agree with Arminianism; how many I have spoken to would have to lump Major Ian Thomas, Jim Cymbala, Carter Conlon, Jackie Pullinger and dozen of others who's sermons are on this website as heretics and therefore should be shunned?
I am not here picking on the reformed per-se, I am saying this kind of nonsense touts itself as representative of God's discernment and requiring all of us to part company with them.

Arthur, this very website would necessarily be condemned and branded a ministry propagating heresy and Greg among others should be reproved, rebuked and as many sermons that do not align with Dr. Williams beliefs should be removed.

Does anyone here actually think that is God? I for one think its devilish.

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Marvin

Brothers Marvin etc

Notwithstanding the website from which the OP was quoted, is it not true that many of the "gospel" ministers of today, instead of preaching the Word of God as it is revealed so clearly, calling sin what it is,judgement what it is, the cross what it is etc. etc., they revert to what seems more a psychological treatise than a gospel message.

I do not know either one of the ministers well and am not defending or attacking them personally at all, just considering what they write and say. They have a public ministry and are therefore open to public scrutiny and discussion.

A lot of what was quoted in the OP, if true quotes, are a reflection of the SELF centred "gospel" of our times, seeking to make the Word of the Living God palatable to the "sinner" of today, as in "seeker sensitive" churches etc. It is as if, the Gospel is all about ME and making ME a better ME, instead of being put right with a Holy God Whom I have offended by my sin and rebellion.

In the end, it is as though we are all trying to be like the Athenic philosophers of old, arguing and discussing and never coming to a conclusion...
Into this place comes a Paul with the clear message of the Word of God: There is a Creator God, the only true God, Who is everywhere present and All wise and Who requires an account from every human being, Who also sent His own Son to be Savior of the world, confirming the same by raising Him from the dead and Who commands all people everywhere to repent and believe in The Son.

As brother Bill pointed out in previous responses: Let's keep it simple, simple enough that a child can understand yet powerful because it is inspired and empowered by the Spirit of God.
The Spirit will not bear witness to our psychobabble preachers, only to the gospel itself (Himself)

God bless,

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William

William-

It only takes about 10 seconds to find numerous articles by and about Tim Keller that totally contradict the conclusion the author in the original article is making. That is always the danger of lifting select passages out of a much longer work because you don't get to see the entire context of what he is saying. That being said, I personally have no issue at all with any of the statements attributed to Keller in the original article because I am experienced enough to know what he means, or what he is "getting at." The author of the article hopes people will be lazy in their thinking; that they will take the quotes or better yet HIS conclusions about the quotes at face value and leave their brain at the door (This is a favorite tactic of "heresy hunters"). He does this because he is tearing and biting at Tim Keller, for whatever reason.

Tim Keller is not preaching "another gospel."

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Todd

Just found one obvious error in original article. The author stated: "But nowhere does the Bible say that sin is ‘making good things into ultimate things’.

But neither does Tim Keller. What Keller ACTUALLY said was that IDOLATRY is "making good things into ultimate things."

It is hard to think of a more accurate and compelling definition of idolatry.

But the author wanted to twist and take the statement out of context by applying the statement to sin in general, which is disingenuous.

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Todd

Hi Brother William, thanks for the reply.

As to Tim Keller, I have a couple of his books, I've gone through a study on the "prodigal God" at my former Church.
I've also listened to numerous sermons and many you tube sermons as well. He's reformed so I try to stay up with the current calvies preaching now a days.

Tim directs his sermons to an audience of New Yorkers. He's not bible belt nor is going to sound like one. He's not an old-school sermonizer like Paul Washer, Steve Lawson or Others of that flavor.

Tim's audience is skeptics, atheists and humanists that abound in New York; that state, its politics and its people resonate with verbiage and 'mindsets' that are no where near our solar system theologically.
So, Enters Paul the Apostle speaking in Acts 17 to the greeks and philosophers...with references to their philosophers, to their ideas without using the Pauline language used in the book of Romans.
As I see it, this is what Tim Keller is doing.
This is what the prophets did, this is what every preacher does...and should do, so that he may orient the word of God to the familiar and ordinary, speaking to where they live.

Now, I make no argument for watered-down versions of sin, repentance or the cross, but I must give place to the Spirit of God speaking as he wants, how he wants, in the way he want through who he wants. As I said in an earlier post, granting Dr. Williams a right to vilify Tim Keller in the way he does brings this whole website, you, me and everyone into condemnation. Why? because if you agree Tim is Anti-nomian ( its means Tim would be against preaching, or expecting people to live according to the laws of God)
When in fact, all that I have read of Tim Keller clearly shows him to understand the purpose and fulfillment of the law and its usage in our new covenant.
But, Tim didn't verbalize it as Dr. Williams appeared to requires it.


In another recent post Todd said something along the lines of "sin is selfishness".
Now, should I attack Todd because he didn't quote the scripture where it is said "sin is the transgression of the law" in James?
Instead of attacking Todd, maybe one should ask him do you believe sin is the transgression of the law? He would no doubt say "of course". But instead, it seems Dr. Williams decided that something akin to Todd's statement was close enough to call Tim Keller's ministry, gospel knowledge and teachings all into question, then label him false.

To reduce it down Tim Keller's dissenter seems to be saying;

Tim doesn't say it like I want it said in a bunch of his books. He must not be faithful to the gospel, I think biblical truth must be articulated according to more direct quotations than 'free-wheeling it' like Tim does...conclusion, he's false.

I could be dead wrong about this, I'll await anyone thinks otherwise.

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Marvin

I trust that this thread will inspire many readers to google Tim Keller on Youtube and examine what he says and how he treats listeners. I'm sure you will find yourself praising God for this extraordinary giftedness in articulating our faith to skeptics, academics, and religiously elite, or seasoned saints. You will praise God for raising up such a shining star - in this culture of ours which seems to have lost its ability to think, discern, formulate effective questions or make good critical judgments (a weakness in the Christian community as well).

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Diane

I do not even have to click on the link in the OP to know that every article on that site is negative, joyless, grim and written for people who are addicted to a sectarian psychology. Heresy-hunter literature is always immediately recognizable by its leaden writing style.

Worse, the author makes God sound like a real pain in the neck.

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Wayne Kraus

Youths Make Joke About Tim Keller’s Baldness, Immediately Mauled By Bears

NEW YORK, NY—NYPD detectives are reportedly investigating an attack on a large band of youths who allegedly insulted pastor and author Timothy Keller, making a quip about his baldness before being mauled by two large bears.

According to witnesses, as Keller was on his morning run through Central Park, a “very large” group of young men watching him pass snickered, one of them shouting, “Hey baldy! Run, baldy, run!” toward the pastor.

http://babylonbee.com/news/youths-make-joke-tim-kellers-baldness-immediately-mauled-bears/

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Wayne Kraus

LOL!

This isn't fake news, is it? :)

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William