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Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 The First Resurrection

I have been leading a bible study on the book of Revelation for the last couple of months. Last nite we studied chapter 20, and encountered some intense discussion on Rev.20:4-5.

4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If I understand this scripture right, only those that die for Christ during the tribulation period will be resurrected to rule and reign with Christ through the millenium?

I welcome your thoughts...
Greg


_________________
Greg

 2005/6/25 1:30Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: handling obscure detail

Quote:
encountered some intense discussion on Rev.20:4-5.


I'm not going to answer your question,( I don't know it) but I am going to make a general comment.

A few years ago, when I was learning how to teach Precepts Bible Study Courses, some of the lessons that I learned really struck me. I will share:

Before studying a small, obsure verse, first look at the wider context. Look at the obvious and clear. Look at what is being said over and over again.

The widest context is the entire Bible. It is full of repetitions. Anything that is important for us to know seems to be repeated clearly, and explicitly by the prophets, and Jesus, and the apostles. So if none of them refer to a big doctrine, then we have to be careful. (Try this test re the Millenium.)

Tozer said regarding scripture - esp the prophetic writings: "It is not a book of theoloical toys to be played with by tender saintlings... to satisfy our curiosity,.... but to santify our personality... to conform us to Christ."
Tozer also talks about trying too hard. Perspiration is not the same as inspiration."
Check out this sermon: [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2396&commentView=itemComments]Grand Mystery of the Bible...[/url]


I've heard it said that a lot of the Bible only makes sense when one is under persecution. When we are persecuted for our faith, then I believe that these truths will become apparent. For now, we see but though a glass dimly.

The prophet Daniel did not receive his final revelation till he was very old. He didn't try to force interpretations into what he saw, but he waited on God.

Revelation is a fantastic book. Christ is clearly the central figure. He is not described as a gentle lamb, but a lamb of wrath Rev. 6:16. That truth should cause us to examine ourselves in the light of the warnings to the seven churches. Could that be one of the divine purposes of the book?

Boy! .... that sure is no help.... well maybe it is in the long run....
Diane


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Diane

 2005/6/25 9:51Profile









 Re: Somewhere here...

...I started a discussion on this very subject. The bible says what it says and you got it correct. It's not mysterious, it just says what it says. Where we have problems is that others of renoun have taught differently. I'll take the Word of God over the teaching of man.


This scripture just blows "pre-trib" rapture out of the water as well. There can only be one "first resurrection". This is clearly at the end of the trib. So it is then that the dead in Christ shall rise first, not at the beginning of the trib.

If someone else knows how to find the other thread here, I'd appreciate you putting up the link. Thanks.

In Him,

lahry

 2005/6/27 17:17
Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re:

Lahry
I too believe that the bible should be allowed to say what it says, without all the "experts" coming up with all kinds of formulas to varify if it really means what it says.
I will just throw another verse out for discussion..

Rev. 14.4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This verse calls the 144,000 firstfruits. This means first right?

Greg :-o


_________________
Greg

 2005/6/27 20:47Profile









 Re: Be careful here....

Be careful with this one. Yes it means first. But these are jews spoken of here. These have an anointing and sanctification from God. If this were not so, you could just throw out the rest of the bible as meaningless.
We are not about self righteousness. We are about faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. So let Him, the author and finisher of our faith unfold all of this the way He chooses. Be careful.

In Him,

Lahry

 2005/6/28 8:05









 Re:

Smokey said:

Rev. 14.4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This verse calls the 144,000 firstfruits. This means first right?

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Stevers response:

Christ is the first of the Firstfruits. He is the first man resurrected from the dead. All believers will be resurrected as well, and be part of the Firstfruits (of the Resurrection)- THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

Jesus resurrected from the dead on Sunday, the feast of Firstfruits. This is what Jesus Christ had to say about those who are resurrected into eternal life- they are sexless, like the Angels. They are "virgins" in their new resurrected bodies, to say the least:

Matthew 22:30 " 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

Also, since they are from the 12 Tribes, they will all be Jewish believers, that believed in Messiah, and have been resurrected from the dead towards the end of the 7 year tribulation. When did they originally die? The text is not clear if they had died long ago, or during the Tribulation.

All Christian believers will be raptured before the Tribulation, and will also be part of the Firstfruits of the resurrection. But this reference in Revelation 14 (the 144,0000) is in regards to Jewish believers in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

There will also be another resurrection (part of the "First Resurrection") after the Tribulation, for all believers (many of them being Jews) that have been martyred during the Tribulation--This is also part of the Firstfruits (of the Resurrection)- all part of the First Resurrection, starting with Christ! The Firstfruits of the Resurrection is a continuous feast, started on the 17th of Abib, Sunday, the Feast of Firstfruits, the first day of the week when Jesus Resurrected, over 2,000 years ago!

God bless,

Stever
P.S.
Revelation 20:3-5 explains the Resurrection (again, part of the "First Resurrection") that takes place right after the Tribulation, afer Satan is thrown in the bottomless pit:

3. And cast him (Satan) into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 2005/6/28 23:00









 Re:

Quote:

Lahry wrote:

This scripture just blows "pre-trib" rapture out of the water as well. There can only be one "first resurrection". This is clearly at the end of the trib. So it is then that the dead in Christ shall rise first, not at the beginning of the trib.

If someone else knows how to find the other thread here, I'd appreciate you putting up the link. Thanks.

In Him,

lahry


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

The Firstfruits of the Resurrection:

1 Cor 15:20:
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT.
21. For since by man came death, by MAN (JESUS CHRIST) CAME ALSO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.
22. For as in Adam all die, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.
23. But every man in his OWN ORDER: CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


In regards to the pre-tribulation rapture being in error, then please explain to me why Christ has to come down and separate the sheep from the goats? They would automatically be separated at the rapture- the dead in Christ rising first, and those (in Christ) that are alive next? Who would be left behind but the Non-believers? There would be no need to separate the Sheep from the Goats if this event occured at the SAME TIME AS THE RAPTURE.

1 Thes 4:16-17
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Firstfruits is the resurrection from the dead of believers in Jesus Christ. Those that believed God and the Messiah to come that lived and died before the Cross, as well as those that believed God and the Messiah that came, and lived and died ( and some still living) after the Cross will all be RESURRECTED IN THEIR OWN ORDER.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/6/28 23:18
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


Dear Readers,

Personally, I've been a rapture believer since my early walk with the Lord and I think I heard it from the Lord and not man so there is no use trying to convince me different.

Please consider the following scriptures in your discussion.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

My understanding of these verses is that the raptured church will come back with Jesus to the earth and that is who this army is in Rev. 19.19.


_________________
Gary Eckenroth

 2005/6/29 1:36Profile









 Re: Stever and Gary

You are not holding fast to what is written in my humble opinion. You are holding on to what you have been taught.

Paul said, the dead in Christ will rise first. 99.9999% of the "believers" in this country will tell you that these are everyone who has died a believer since Jesus rose from the dead. Is that so? Most will tell you that this is at the rapture of the church and at the beginning of the trib. Is that what it says?

How many "first resurrections" can there be? The one in Rev. 20 is clearly after the trib. It clearly defines who will be resurrected. The rest will have to wait for the end of the millineum. That's what the bible says. Most of what you say cannot be supported by scripture and tied to a "pre-trib" event. The bible simply does not say that.

To anyone who wants to dig it up, the history of "pre-trib" rapture can easily be traced back to man, about the 16th or 17th century. Before that, it was not heard of or taught anywhere. None of the early church "fathers" mentioned it.

I admonish you both in love, let the Holy Spirit through what the bible says mold and fashion your theology. You'll be glad and blessed that you did.

Hugs in Christ Jesus,

Lahry

 2005/6/29 7:36









 Re:

Lahry said:

Paul said, the dead in Christ will rise first. 99.9999% of the "believers" in this country will tell you that these are everyone who has died a believer since Jesus rose from the dead. Is that so? Most will tell you that this is at the rapture of the church and at the beginning of the trib. Is that what it says?


Stever's response:

Lahry, who exactly is Christ? Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the seed of the woman. As far as your statement that I am only spewing out here the doctrine of men, I have to disagree with you. The Doctrine that I have provided here comes directly from the Old and the New Testament. Most Christians spend no time in the Old Testament, but Christ, as well as the Disciples used the Old Testament as doctrinal proof that Jesus Christ of Nazareth was the Messiah, the "seed of the woman" that was prophesized throughout the Old Testament. Christ said "in the volume of the Book (the entire Old Testament) it is written of ME!

We are saved by ????? Faith in Jesus Christ. Old Testament believers in the Messiah were accounted to be righteous (saved)----How???? By believing God and the Messiah to come.

We who live after the Cross are only saved by the works of one man, Jesus Christ the God Man. We perform no "works" to be saved. We are saved by our belief and faith in the works of Jesus Christ. That is what sanctifies us, that is what saves us.

We today are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, witnesses that are ALL Old Testament Saints, Old Testament Believers in the Messiah to come. Men like Moses, Abraham, King David, Samuel, Jonah, Isaiah. Do you consider your walk with God today to be on equal footing with their walk? I only wish that I had the walk of David, or Abraham, or Moses. How about you, do you feel the same?

Do you remember, after the crucifixion & resurrection about how Christ led "captivity captive"? Ephesians 4:8-10 " 8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

These people held captive are believers in the Messaih to come, that had died and descended to Abraham's Bosom. He spent 3 days and 3 nights down there witnessing to them, and took them all to heaven with him.

Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This situation could not take place until sin was dealt with, until sin was paid for in full. Once that happened one of the first things He (Christ) did was to bring the believers from the Old Testament back to heaven with Him.

When we die, if we do so before the Rapture, then we will be immediately in His presence as well, right along all of the Old Testament believers- Samson, Jepthae, Noah, Abel and others.
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Lahry said:
How many "first resurrections" can there be? The one in Rev. 20 is clearly after the trib. It clearly defines who will be resurrected. The rest will have to wait for the end of the millineum. That's what the bible says. Most of what you say cannot be supported by scripture and tied to a "pre-trib" event. The bible simply does not say that.

Stever's response:
Again, you are not understanding what I said and the Bible Verses I quoted to back it up. There is only one "First Resurrection" to eternal life. Christ is part of the First Resurrection and started it---we after Him are part of it as well. To make it more understandable, the First Resurrection is an EVENT that started with Christ resurrecting from the dead (to eternal life), and will end with the last person resurrected from the dead and raised to eternal life. This "resurrection to eternal life" takes place at different times, but they are all part of the same EVENT:

1 Cor 15:20:
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT.
21. For since by man came death, by MAN (JESUS CHRIST) CAME ALSO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.
22. For as in Adam all die, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.
23. But every man in his OWN ORDER: CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS; A F T E R W A R D (afterward) they that are Christ's at his coming.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Lahry said:
To anyone who wants to dig it up, the history of "pre-trib" rapture can easily be traced back to man, about the 16th or 17th century. Before that, it was not heard of or taught anywhere. None of the early church "fathers" mentioned it.

Stever's response:

A thorough read of 1 Thessalonians reveals that Paul wrote this letter to them because of the tremendous persecution that they were going through and their own belief that they had missed the Rapture. Paul himself mentions the rapture here, to the Church at Thessalonica, and tells them not to worry, it is a future event. Please note that this event is not tied to the end of the Tribulation or to end-time events, like you have suggested above. It is an event that can take place at any moment. The Christian is told to keep his eyes on Jesus. The reason for that is the rapture can take place at any time. We are not told to look for the Antichrist, for the re-building of the Temple, or any other events that take place during the Tribulation.

Paul tells them that they will be delivered from the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation):
1 The 1: 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Paul tells them that the rapture will come before the beginning of the "Day of the Lord":
1 Thes 5:2 " 2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Paul re-assures them again that God has not appointed them (believers) to the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation):
1 Thes 5:9-11 "9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

Paul admonishes them, and tells them that they should not be ignorant (because they have been ignorant-thus the purpose of this entire letter to them) of this event, that he (Paul) has already taught tehm before:
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



Many wonderful Christian believers (John F. Walvoord being one of them) confuse the separation of the sheep and the goats with the rapture. This event (the separation of the sheep and the goats) takes place at the end of the Tribulation, when Christ comes as a Thief, to kill and destroy (hardly sounds like the glorious event of the Rapture, does it?). The ones taken are the ones (the goats)that will be judged at the Great White Throne, at the end of the 1,000 reign. These are the people that are destroyed by Christ when He comes again to rule and reign on the earth. The ones that are left (the Sheep)will be people of flesh and blood, who came to belief in the Messiah during the Tribulation, and are still alive at the end of the Tribulation (probably most of them will be Jews, who have been supernaturally protected by God) who will enter the millennial reign with Christ for 1,000 years. These are the people of flesh and blood that will not die during this period and will have many, many, many children- billions in fact.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


God bless,

Stever

p.s. The Doctrine of men? The doctrine of men such as Westcott & Hort and other Bible "Scholars" & "Textural Critics" have really been nothing more than infidels and are the ones that have destroyed our understanding of the Bible. The bible is 66 Books written by 40 authors over one thousand five hundred years and are totally consistent and inspired by God. Every Book of the Bible is inspired.

Sincerely,

Stever

 2005/6/29 12:00





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