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 Re:

Stever posted:

Actually in most of our Churches The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is either not known about or purposefully placed in the trash can.
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Philologos responded:

Well, it certainly is not the case in the church that I am part of. These generalisations are unhelpful and untrue.

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Stever's response:

I continue to have great difficulty with your posts. You have testified on this thread that the church that you attend believes in the gifts of the spirit. Your description on several posts indicate that people that attend your Church speak in tongues (at least that is the assumption that I have made). Therefore, you must attend or pastor a Charismatic Church. Is that correct?

If so, why don't you understand what I am posting? RT had the same difficulty, yet he has testified on this thread that he speaks in tongues "all of the time". When I asked him for specifics about his "Promise of the Father Baptism he had no recollection of when it even happened!

How are believers that want this baptism, this "Promise of the Father" led into this baptism at your Church?

I personally know several people who asked for this baptism while in deep prayer and received it, all on their own. Most people are not that fortunate. I have found that the majority who have this baptism are led into it by other Spirit Filled believers that have already received the "Promise of the Father". The description of how Paul led others into this baptism is found in Acts 19:6

" 6. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

These are the signs that follow the believer that has received the "Promise of the Father":
17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Acts 8:14-19 describes how this "Promise of the Father", this baptism in which the Holy Spirit comes upon the believer when hands are layed upon beleivers who have already been baptized into the name of Jesus:
14. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15. Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16. (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19. Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.



I Would appreciate an honest response, to the best of your ability.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/18 21:46









 Re: concerning baptism - mosques and power

Stever,

Thanks for the information on mosques in the UK and the spread of Isalm. It is important to remember the crucial difference between Christianity and Islam (not that there cannot be converts to the latter) but, that no-one can be born a Christian (as a baby). And, Christ said few find the narrow path. There are over 10000 parishes in England. The other thing to remember is that many of the newer Christian groups who meet, choose to do so in a hall or school. A decline in the burden of up-keeping church buildings is not necessarily a bad thing for the Church, if it frees up money for proper giving.

Quote:
I personally know several people who asked for this baptism while in deep prayer and received it, all on their own.

If the 'promise of the Father' is preached at the same time as the initial call to faith there is no reason why those who are ready should not be given the Holy Spirit in baptism as part of the process of coming to Christ, but, it is the Father who gives, whether someone lays hands on the believer or not. This is how I see it, anyway.

 2005/7/18 23:04









 Re:

Stever said:

I personally know several people who asked for this baptism while in deep prayer and received it, all on their own.


Dorcas said:

If the 'promise of the Father' is preached at the same time as the initial call to faith there is no reason why those who are ready should not be given the Holy Spirit in baptism as part of the process of coming to Christ, but, it is the Father who gives, whether someone lays hands on the believer or not. This is how I see it, anyway.

Stever's response:

I totally agree with you, 100%. Some people are ready, and God knows their hearts. I know of a Las Vegas Show girl who baptised herself in her own bath tub and came out speaking in tongues, and filled with the Holy Spirit.

She was ready and God knew her heart!

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/19 0:04









 Re:

Philologos said:

stever
Why are you so insistent upon making this an either/or issue? You do not need to dilute the testimony of water baptism in order to maximize its testimony to Spirit baptism. The two are so plainly set out as separate experiences in the Acts that this is impossible to deny.


Stever's response:

My question to you sir, is why can't you get out of the water? I have stated many, many times over the past month that my focus on this forum on Baptism is NOT water baptism, but THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER.

Please, forget all about water baptism, and provide your views upon the "Promise of the Father, the Baptism in which the Holy Spirit comes upon the believer that provides POWER to witness.

I am not "diluting" any testimony, I am merely trying to clarify that my focus is on another batptism. Since you attend or pastor a Charismatic Church, you should have something intersting and helpful to testify about THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER AND ABOUT THE POWER THAT IT HAS GENERATED IN YOUR CHURCH. THE POWER TO WITNESS, THE POWER TO LAY HANDS ON THE SICK AND PRAY FOR THEM, AND EXPECT THEIR RECOVERY, THE POWER TO SPEAK IN UNKNOWN TONGUES.

Please, sir, forget the water. You have been the only poster, other than RT, that can't get out of the water on this thread.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/19 1:41
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Stever writes

Quote:
Please, sir, forget the water. You have been the only poster, other than RT, that can't get out of the water on this thread.


an earlier Stever statement
Quote:
I have been thinking about this lately and eventhough I can't back it up by Scripture think that the new beleiver is baptized into Christ's blood. Eventhough the element that we use here is water (on this earth), the actual element in Heaven (in the Spiritual realm) is Christ's blood.



The reason that I have contended with you on these issues is that you are mixing biblical terminology with your own to the confusion of both. You began by saying that you were always open to correction and yet you have not received 'correction' from any post here. You persist in restating your own views irrespective of whether or not they have biblical basis. You constantly quote others without an understanding of their position.

If you have perused this site at any depth you would know that I believe passionately in the Baptism in the Spirit as an identifiable and conscious experience of initiation into Christ Himself. But some of the references you are using have no relation to that experience but to the experience of water baptism; in particular the post-resurrection sayings of Christ. It is these assertions that I have challenged, not the experience of Baptism in the Spirit.

I am not obsessed with 'water baptism' but I am obsessed with accurate use of scripture.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/19 4:16Profile









 Re:

Dear Philologos:

I have to conclude that all you want to do is argue on this thread in response to whatever I post, going all the way back to your first response to my first post of over 1 month ago.

This is not a good witness, and I really will not participate in it. You have never addressed the "Promise of the Father" in any of your posts, you have never shared with us the effects that this baptism has had within your Church, and you have never addressed the change in your own life that this Baptism has created in your own life.

All you want to do is argue. From now on, Sir, you will have to argue with yourself.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/19 11:41
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

If you are really interested in my views on 'baptism in Spirit' you will find them throughout this website.
The distinction between being 'filled' and 'baptized' in the Spirit.

The church of which I am part has no doctrinal constitution but most of the folk who belong would be close to my understanding in these things. As for myself my moment of being 'baptized in the Spirit' brought me from death to life and seated me in the heavenly places in Christ. Those who hear me would probably think that I preach on this topic more than any other.

I can't think what you want me to say about the 'promise of the Father'. It is the promise of the Father, given to the Son, poured out upon His people.

As regards 'arguing'. I have no wish to argue, but this is a forum, a market place, designed specifically for discussion.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/19 11:56Profile









 Re:

Philologos said:

The church of which I am part has no doctrinal constitution but most of the folk who belong would be close to my understanding in these things. As for myself my moment of being 'baptized in the Spirit' brought me from death to life and seated me in the heavenly places in Christ. Those who hear me would probably think that I preach on this topic more than any other.

I can't think what you want me to say about the 'promise of the Father'. It is the promise of the Father, given to the Son, poured out upon His people.

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Stever's response:

This is your entire testimony about how the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Promise of the Father) has impacted your life?

Specifically you stated:
"As for myself my moment of being 'baptized in the Spirit' brought me from death to life and seated me in the heavenly places in Christ."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

What you have stated above, Philologos, applies to every Christian who believes in Jesus Christ. Every Christian, once he Believes, receives a supernatural baptism and is brought from life to death. Every Christian is seated in heavenly places with Christ. This is not only not specific, but has nothing to do with "the promise of the Father", where the believer receives power, and his life is transformed!

Finally you conclude with:

I can't think what you want me to say about the 'promise of the Father'. It is the promise of the Father, given to the Son, poured out upon His people.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Philologos, this "Promise of the Father is only "Poured Out" on those who specifically ask for it, who specifically want it. If the "Promise of the Father", the Spirit Baptism was really part of your life, you would have no trouble giving an answer, giving your testimony.

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Stever continues:
My testimony to this Baptism, the Promise of the Father is as follows:

Upon receiving this baptism, that another believer that was spirit filled led me into by the laying on of hands, has made a dramatic change in my life. When I was led into this Baptism I immediately started speaking in tongues. Also, I became bold in proclaming the Gospel, to people that the Holy Spirit sent my way, some people that I knew, and others that are total strangers. This continues to this day. My prayer life is now personal and powerful and constant. My praise to the Lord is also constant, never ceasing. I have become an intercessor in praying for the needs of others, as well as my own family. The Bible came alive to me, was quickened, immediately after this Spirit Baptism. The Holy Spirit has also provided me with Spiritual discernment.

When did my life change from being a casual Christian to becoming a Christian with the power to witness to anyone, as well as all of the other blessings mentioned above? When did my life change from being a meek Christian to a bold Christian? On June 4, 1999 at the home of friends in Garden Grove, California.

That is my testimony, so help me God.

God bless,

Stever

P.S. I give this testimony to encourage other believers that want a closer, personal walk with the Lord to reach out, and ask God for this Speicial blessing. If you do not automatically receive it after praying for it, then find other Spirit filled Christians that actually walk the walk (not just talk the talk) of this Baptism, and ask them to "lead you into" this Baptism by the laying on of hands. The Charismatic body is full of people who speak in tongues, but are not actually Spirit filled. Anyone can babble words that have no meaning, thus deceiving others.

Bible verses that give understanding about the "Promise of the Father"- the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes UPON the believer and empowers the believer to live and walk a more victorius Christian life:

Acts 1:4-5
4. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 2:1-4
1. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Acts 19:4-6
4. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6. AND WHEN PAUL LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM, THE HOLY GHOST CAME UPON THEM; AND THEY SKOKE WITH TONGUES, AND PROPHESIED.

Acts 8:14-17
14. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15. Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16. (For as yet HE WAS FALLEN UPON NONE OF THEM: ONLY THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS.)
17. THEN LAID THEY THEIR HANDS ON THEM, AND THEY BELIEVED.AND THEY RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST.

These are the signs that follow the Spirit Filled Believer (the believer should not follow the signs, but the signs should follow the Spirit Filled Beliver that has received the Promise of the Father)

Mark 16:15-20
15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


 2005/7/19 23:30









 Re:

This is a true story of God's saving grace and healing power.

In April, 2003 we prepaid for a trip to Hawaii. Actually I had wanted to go to Tahiti for many years, and that was my plan, but all of a sudden I felt the need to return to the Big Island-to stay in a Condominium in Kona. We had previously been to Hawaii in 1994, and visited 3 Islands (Oahu, Maui, & Hawaii). We really like Hawaii (the Big Island) because of the slower pace and friendliness of the people there. As we were getting close to our departure date, my assistant fractured her hip and required surgery. I am an Insurance Broker and rely heavily on my assistant. With her out of commission I really did not want to leave. However, the trip was paid for and we had to go. Before leaving we prayed that God would use us in any way that HE saw fit, and that he would manage my business while we were away. We left on June 16th from LAX and arrived in Oahu 5 hours later. From there we took an inter-island plane to Hawaii. A personal college friend of mine (Gary) lives on the big island, with his wife and family. We have kept in touch all of these years since graduating in 1974. He is also in the insurance business as well. We had not received a Christmas card from Gary and Laverne, but since we have been so busy we never followed up to find out why. On Monday, Tuesday & Wednesday I called Gary's home- the answering machine was off, so I assumed that they might be on vacation. I tried again on Thursday evening and the answering machine was working so I left a message. Friday evening at 5:50 I received a call on my cell phone from Gary, telling me that he had been in the hospital (Straub Clinic & Hospital) in Oahu since 11/24/2002. He fell into a coma on that date and was airlifted from Hilo to Oahu (Honolulu). He came out of the coma in mid January, 2003. He said that he had not felt well in the prior year before the coma. He had 2 MRI's and one CAT scan to find out why he could not tolerate spicy or oily foods. They found nothing. The day that he went into the coma he had just finished eating lunch. When he came out of the coma in mid January, they felt that he had a bad gall bladder, that had affected his pancreas. In February they operated on him, with the intent of removing the gallbladder and cleaning up the pancreas. Once they got inside they were horrified to find the pancreas was in a state called necroticizing pancreatitis. They could not touch the gall bladder and operated on the pancreas. He has had over 20 surgeries on his pancreas. We immediately changed our travel plans (because we paid the extra $100 to do so) and Pleasant Hawaiian had us on a plane headed for Honolulu the next morning at 10:30 A.M. They put us up in the Marriott Hotel in Honolulu for the last night of our stay. We immediately took a cab to the hospital and visited with Gary, Laverne, and his youngest daughter Lariel for the entire day and into the late evening. I brought my Bible with me, and after visiting and talking for several hours, asked Gary if he would like to hear some healing scriptures from the Bible. He said yes and I went over many, many of these healing promise scriptures. He then decided that he wanted to have a Bible in his room. We looked all over but the Gideon's Bible that had been there previously was gone. I decided that I would send him one as soon as we got home and Gary was glad about that. As we were getting ready to leave, Gary asked me about our plans for Sunday, our last day. I said that since we did not have a car, we would just get up, get ready and be to the airport by 12:00 noon. Gary suggested that we come over to visit him, that Laverne would pick us up at 9:30 A.M. and we could spend time with him before we left, and that Laverne would take us to the airport. We said great, we will see you then. Laverne took us back to our hotel and we got to bed about 11:30. My wife, Tanis could not sleep. The Holy Spirit was convicting her heart that we had to witness to Gary the next day. Finally, after agreeing to do so she got 4 hours sleep. We were ready to leave at 9:30 and Laverne was there waiting to pick us up, with all of our luggage. After arriving at the Hospital, I asked Gary if he would like to hear about the blessings that we have in Jesus Christ. He said sure, and I read the first chapter of Ephesians to him, with lots of explanation. After reading that I was planning on going to Romans 10:9-11 and lead him in the sinners prayer. My wife, Tanis, with the prompting of the Holy Spirit, asked him- Gary, would you like to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, to rule and reign in your life? Gary said that he would, and then my wife led him into the sinners prayer and he accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

At this point in time, Gary had 2 IV's and 3 drainage tubes (one for the pancreas, the gall bladder, and the stomach). He received insulin 3-5 times per day.

When we got home to Huntington Beach I got on to the internet and found the phone number for the local Calvary Chapel Church in Honolulu and called the assistant pastor. I related to him the story of Gary's salvation, and asked if the Church could come alongside Gary and Disciple him, as well as to offer the family support. He said absolutely, yes, that he would bring it up to the brothers, that they would pray about it, and send someone over. Later that day, Monday, June 23rd they sent two men to Disciple Gary. The following Saturday, Laverne, Gary's wife was led to the Lord. Gary just explained to me the other night that he was raised as a Mormon and Laverne was raised as a Buddhist. However, he considered himself to be a "Jack" Mormon" and she considered herself to be a "Jack" Buddhist".

Within one week of Gary's conversion, he was walking 2 miles a day around the hospital, with all of his IV's and bags.

Gary was released from the Straub Clinic & Hospital on August 5th. He was actually ready to be released on August 1st, but they could not get an inter-island flight home to Hilo. He is totally off all I.V.'s, and off all insulin. He still had the drainage tubes for his pancreas, gall bladder and stomach in place. Gary called his Doctor of August 1st to tell him that he was being released into the Doctors care. The Doctors first question was how much insulin that Gary was now using. Gary responded- NONE- The Dr. said that was impossible, because of the necroticizing pancreatitis. Gary said, "all that I can tell you is that I am totally off of the insulin, and therefore my own body must be manufacturing that insulin". After arriving home on Tuesday, Aug. 5th, Gary set up an appointment to see his Dr. on Thursday, August 7th. The Dr wanted to take a CAT scan to be sure of Gary's condition. The CAT scan was performed Friday, August 8th and the Dr. could not believe his eyes. He expected to see a dwarfed pancreas, because of the necroticization (I guess), but actually saw a perfect, full-sized pancreas, that is not diseased.They now want to remove the drainage tube to the pancreas.

Gary is continuing to get better. He has been tube fed since 11/24/02 when he went into the coma. Just before they released him from the hospital, they tried to feed him broth, jello and water by mouth. However, after one week, they realized that his stomach has a fistula in it, due to all of the surgeries that he has had. The CAT Scan showed that the stomach was slowly healing. Before this latest scan was performed by the Dr. in Hilo, the Doctors at Straub Clinic and Hospital had determined that in 6 months time they would be able to go in and remove the gallbladder. It now appears that this timetable is being moved up, due to the power of prayer and God's supernatural power to do anything.

Gary is on every major prayer list that we are aware of. We are continuing to pray for him daily. We are praying that God will touch him and totally restore all of the organs and tissue in his body. That God would continue to pour out his blessings on Gary and Laverne and that he would continue to quicken His Word to them. We are also praying for Gary's two daughters, that God would soften their hearts and open their eyes, and draw them to Him.

Gary is a testimony to the healing power and saving grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Doctors and the nurses at Straub Hospital cannot believe what happened. His Doctor in Hilo also cannot believe that he is not only still alive, but actually getting well. Please, continue to pray for his healing.

Sincerely,



Steve Goltra

9/8/2003

UPDATE ON GARY: HE HAS NOW STARTED TAKING LIQUIDS AND JELLO, BY MOUTH, FOR THE PAST WEEK WITH NO PROBLEMS OR LEAKAGE. THE FISTULA IN HIS STOMACH APPEARS TO BE HEALED. HALLELUJAH!!!!!
PLEASE, PRAY FOR GARY'S CONTINUED HEALING.

10/6/2003

UPDATE ON GARY: HE IS NOW EATING FOOD!!!! YESTERDAY HE HAD CHICKEN, RICE, SALAD, VEGETABLES & A BANANA! HE SAID THAT HE HAD TROUBLE OPENING HIS MOUTH WIDE ENOUGH TO GET THE BANANA INTO IT. DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE HASN'T EATEN SOLID FOOD SINCE 11/24/2002 HIS MOUTH NEEDS TO BE STRETCHED OUT! THE DOCTORS ARE NOW TALKING ABOUT TAKING OUT THE GALLBLADDER SOON, INSTEAD OF WAITING 6 MONTHS, AS ORIGINALLY PLANNED!

1/23/2004

Gary had surgery to remove his gallbladder on 1/16/04 at Straub Clinic and Hospital in Oahu. He had recovered enough to finally have the organ that created the whole problem removed from his body! The Surgeon was worried that the previous surgeries (20 of them) had altered the location of the gallbladder. We prayed that God would supernaturally re-arrange everything, so the surgery would go smoothly and that God would anoint and direct the hands of the Surgeon, and would provide Gary with a speedy recovery. Surgery started at 10:00 A.M. and ended at 12:30 P.M. They were able to find the gallbladder easily. In taking it out, they had to cut the front ½. They cleaned out the bladder stones. The largest stone, the size of a walnut, was lodged at the duct, keeping all of the other stones trapped (over 20 of them). The remainder of the gallbladder were removed by cauterization. All of the ducts were also cauterized. He went to recovery and we talked to him about 5:30 our time. The Doctors were very pleased with the surgery and told him that they expect him to recover 100%! What a miracle this is. The Dr.'s have a name for Gary- The Miracle Man. He told them that the miracle man was Jesus, He is the one that performed the healing.

Gary is recovering very rapidly. The remaining tube (his stomach tube) will be removed, once he is ready to go home to Hilo, probably next week. This entire story is a testimony of the love and power and saving grace of Jesus Christ!

2/22/2004 Update
Gary had a procedure to remove the stone in his kidney. A shunt was placed in the kidney to keep the stone where it is for now. He will come back to the Hospital as an outpatient tomorrow to have one last Cat Scan, before going home to Hilo, hopefully tomorrow afternoon.

7/31/2004
Gary is doing so much better. He is walking 2-4 miles a day now. He has also started working part time. He is updating the accounting system of his Doctor. His program was DOS based, so Gary is helping in the transition between the old and the new system, as well as assisting the person responsible for the data entry into the new system. Gary also is servicing his existing insurance clients. He is only working 3-4 hours a day, but he says that he is feeling stronger and stronger as time goes on. Gary asks for everyone's continued prayers for God's continued blessing in his life.

5/5/2005
Gary continues to improve. He is working now, 2-3 days a week. He still continues to walk 3-5 miles daily and continues to improve. He prays daily and when I call him, always asks for prayer- for him and his wife, and for salvation for his family.




GOD BLESS,

STEVER

 2005/7/20 0:58
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
This is your entire testimony about how the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Promise of the Father) has impacted your life?


My testimony is my life. Do you want me to boast about the ways in which God has led me? I have preached the gospel in more than 20 countries, I have pastored churches and co-founded a bible school, I preach regularly at conferences and local churches. I have had regular radio programmes over 6 years. I write, I pastor, I pastor pastors, I advise missionary societies and all because I received, by His grace, power of the Holy Spirit in Spirit-Baptism. But my folly has gone too far and I will pursue it no longer. I am an unprofitable servant.

Quote:
Philologos, this "Promise of the Father is only "Poured Out" on those who specifically ask for it, who specifically want it. If the "Promise of the Father", the Spirit Baptism was really part of your life, you would have no trouble giving an answer, giving your testimony.

I have no intention of satisfying your peculiar curiosity in 'giving my testimony'. I have given it often, but never on demand. Your arrogance in the above quotation is remarkable. But I will not defend myself or my experience of God's blessing in the atmosphere of hostility that you seem to thrive in.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/20 5:15Profile





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