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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Go to China, to Africa. That is where you will see the harvest, that is where you will see power, & that is where you will see miracles- the sick are healed, the blind can see, and the dead are being resurrected.


...and the believers are being baptised in water in obedience to Christ's command.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/17 17:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Actually in most of our Churches The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is either not known about or purposefully placed in the trash can.

Well, it certainly is not the case in the church that I am part of. These generalisations are unhelpful and untrue.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/17 17:28Profile









 Re:

Okay, i have a few things to say. Please take your time reading this. Focus on the end above everything please.

Quote:
dorcas wrote:
What John the Baptist said, was before he had even baptised Jesus in water. Straight after he baptised Jesus in water, Jesus disciples starting baptising in water also. So both John's and Jesus's disciples are baptising for repentance, at the same time, in water, in the name of the one they follow.


This was something that helped me understand that 'baptism hasn't gone away' as another states.

Quote:
Philologos wrote:
As Nasher pointed out earlier in this thread (I think) This could never have been a commission for the apostles to 'baptize' people in the Holy Spirit; that is Christ's unique prerogative and one which He would never delegate. This has to be water baptism.


That, helped also. Christ would never delegate such a thing. Praise God for that insight.

Quote:
Stever wrote:
Now, for the million dollar question, what Baptism was Christ talking about? Was it the water baptism practiced by John the Baptist, and his own Disciples before his death and resurrection--all still in the Old Testament? The baptism in water that was nothing more than a picture, a type of his own Baptism that took place to fulfill all righteousness? All of the "purifications" that the Priests were involved in at the laver (washing their hands and feet)- first at Tabernacle and later at the Temple. Also, Solomon established water purifications at the Temple by instituting the "Sea of Glass" for the Priests. ALL OF THESE WERE FULFILLED BY CHRIST AT HIS OWN WATER BAPTISM.

OR, WAS IT THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER THAT CHRIST TALKS ABOUT--the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that empowers the believer.


Now, I'm not bashing you personally but throughout the book of Acts. The disciples baptised people. After someone made a commitment to God they said 'oh, there is water, what refrains me from being baptised'. And they said WATER. Alot of things are 'forshadowed' from the OT to now, but keep in mind. Without us knowing it, we DO what the OT has commanded. (Priests eating the bread and wine,Priests offering up sacrifices to the Lord (prayer and petitions...etc). Even though many things from the OT have been 'completed' some are still ongoing. (which im learning more about)


[b]***Please pay attention here***[/b]
Quote:
Servus wrote:
As I have watched this discussion progress I have become rather disgusted at the display we have seen here.



I Agree with this statement. During the past 2 pages (some of 7, all of 8 and all of 9, thats 2 full pages :-P), i have sensed anger and strife. I know some things were 'misunderstood', but there is like (maybe, maybe not) unforgiveness. Saying 'oh sorry, my mistake, but this is what was meant'.

I encourage and ask that everyone just maybe refrains for like 3 days or something to 'claim the storm'. Ask each other for forgiveness and lets move on with discussing things to help us learn what the Lord has been saying.

 2005/7/17 23:56
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
i have sensed anger and strife.


One of the problems with 'emails' is that it is possible to 'sense anger and strife' even when there isn't any. I know that for myself these things have not been in my heart and yet I know that people often 'sense' them there. We need to give the best possible interpretation to anything that is said here and understand that emails are a dangerous form of communication.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/18 2:18Profile









 Re:

TO: Yeshua, Philologos, and Dorcas, and other interested posters

Re: The Promise of the Father- The Baptism of the Holy Spirit UPON the believer


The point that I have been trying to make, for over one month now, is that "The Promise of the Father"- the Baptism of the Holy Spirit upon the believer--- IS NOT TAKING PLACE IN THE WESTERN CHURCH. This Baptism IS DESCRIBED IN ACTS 19 WHEN PAUL WENT TO EPHESUS AND ASKS SOME DISCIPLES IF THEY HAD RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT and ends as follows:

" 6. And when Paul had LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM, THE HOLY GHOST CAME ON THEM, AND THEY SPAKE WITH TONGUES, AND PROPHESIZED.
7. And all the men were about twelve.
8. And he went into the synagogue, and SPOKE BOLDLY for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God."

Water baptism does not automatically bring this about. We have to ask God for this baptism. Gods word tells me that there is only one Baptism (Ephesians 4:4-5 " 4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,) AND THAT WE ARE ALL BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH (Romans 6:3 "3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?). This Baptism is a supernatural one that takes place at the moment we believe that Jesus Christ is LORD and has nothing to do with water. The person that becomes a believer does not need to seal this supernatural baptism with water. Water Baptism is merely an outward witness that the person being baptized belongs to Christ AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ALREADY RESIDENT IN HIS HEART. It does not bring about the "Promise of the Father" as told to us by Christ.

THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER: " 4. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence........... 6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7. And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8. But ye shall receive power, after that the HOLY GHOST IS COME UPON YOU: and ye shall be WITNESSES unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."


That is what all of this has been about. Since there is only "one Baptism", and the Holy Spirit is already in residence in the heart of the believer, then the Promise of the Father is nothing more than the overflow of the Holy Spirit who now is able to come UPON THE BELIEVER AND PROVIDE POWER TO THE BELIEVER TO WITNESS.

For many years I wanted a closer walk with God and a more personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Then, one night (the night of June 4, 1999) a Brother in the Lord led me and my wife into this baptism, the "Promise of the Father" and my life has changed. Paul tells us about it "" 6. And when PAUL LAID HIS HANDS UPON THEM, THE HOLY GHOST CAME ON THEM; and they SPOKE WITH TONGUES, AND PROPHESIED.


This baptism, the "Promise of the Father" is what I have been trying to introduce here. The HOSTILITY of some believers has been an eye opener, to say the least.

I have been water baptized twice. That baptism was nothing more than a memorial, and outward witness, a statement to the world that I belong to Jesus Christ. There is no supernatural power in water baptism. Water is a "picture" a "type" of the Holy Spirit that was established by God. All of "washings" in water that the Priest experienced for over 1500 years that took place at the laver in Tabernacle and the Temple were nothing more than a picture of Christs baptism at the Jordan River. Christ's water baptism was a fullfillment of this picture [to "fulfill all righteousness- Matt 3:15], of this type of "sanctification" that only pointed to him. Similarily, just like the brass serpent that Moses raised in the wilderness. Those that beleived God looked up to the brass serpent (representing the Messiah on the Cross, with the sin of mankind upon him) and God healed them. The brass serpent itself had nothing to do with their salvation, but their belief in God did. Later, Hezekiah had to destroy the brass serpent because the Israelites were worshipping it.

My pupose on this thread of baptism has been to focus on the Promise of the father, that happens when:

1. we ask God for this Promise

2. Others, that have already received this baptism, lay hands on us and lead us into this baptism, that provides power to the believer to witness to the lost, to speak in tongues, and to have a closer walk with the LORD.

God bless,

Stever

P.S. I encourage Water Baptism for new beleivers, but I also educate them that it does not automatically provide them with the "Promise of the Father".

 2005/7/18 2:29
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
We need to give the best possible interpretation to anything that is said here and understand that emails are a dangerous form of communication.



This is so true. I myself have been guilty of projecting my own fears or experiences onto the words of others...inferring what was never implied. On the other hand I have also been guilty of typing too hastily without "listening" to my post before submitting...now I wish I could retract much of my own posting history...:oops:

I'm trying to practice better "Netiquette." :-D

Pardon my distraction here...


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/7/18 2:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Quote:
[b]many[/b] of them have been sold to Muslims who have created Mosques out of them.

Where, please?



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:
Dorcas: Just use Google as a search engine, and type in “Christian Churches converted to Muslim Mosques in England”

This is just one of many sites:

http://www.equip.org/free/DI200-1.htm

This is an article that appears in the Christian Research Institute in Santa Margarita, California


Even in Great Britain impressive inroads are occurring. Saudi Arabia has bought an Arabic language paper in London called The Middle East. Backed by an annual budget of $75 million, the magazine’s purpose is to spread the Arabic political view and to propagate Islam. England now has about 300 mosques, many of them former Protestant churches which were bought by Muslims. In 1983 Queen Elizabeth attended the dedication of a newly-constructed $7.5 million mosque in the affluent Regents Park.

Worldwide
A recent survey of world religions states that Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion with nearly one billion followers. Thus, Islam is the faith of one-fifth of the world’s population. Over the past 50 years Islam has increased by about 500 percent. During this same period Christianity, also with about one billion adherents, grew by only 47 percent.


52 According to Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, the director of the Islamic Society of Orange County (California), 85 percent of the world’s Muslims are non-Arabic.53 Today 67 different nations, encompassing a seventh of the world’s total land mass, make up "The House of Islam."

Amazingly, there is no indication that Islam’s growth has reached its apex. Forty percent of Southeast Asia is Muslim. In South Asia 31 percent of the population is Muslim. Over 92 percent of the Middle East and North Africa is Muslim. Nearly 50 percent of West Africa is Muslim.

The largest Islamic nation in the world is Indonesia with 153 million Muslims. The next four largest are Pakistan (86 million), India (82 million), Bangladesh (78 million), and the USSR (50 million). Demographic studies of the Soviet Union indicate that by the year 2000 their Muslim population will be about 100 million."

Great inroads also have been made in the West. In Western Europe Islam is the second largest religion. Two years ago Al Islam, an Islamic magazine in West Germany, confidently predicted that within two decades Europe would be won over to Islam.

In Greece there are now nearly 300 mosques. In France, there are about one and a half million Muslims, "about six Muslim residents in France for every born again French Christian."


EVEN IN GREAT BRITAIN IMPRESSIVE INROADS ARE OCCURRING. SAUDI ARABIA HAS BOUGHT AN ARABIC LANGUAGE PAPER IN LONDON CALLED THE MIDDLE EAST. BACKED BY AN ANNUAL BUDGET OF $75 MILLION, THE MAGAZINE’S PURPOSE IS TO SPREAD THE ARABIC POLITICAL VIEW AND TO PROPAGATE ISLAM. ENGLAND NOW HAS ABOUT 300 MOSQUES, MANY OF THEM FORMER PROTESTANT CHURCHES WHICH WERE BOUGHT BY MUSLIMS. IN 1983 QUEEN ELIZABETH ATTENDED THE DEDICATION OF A NEWLY-CONSTRUCTED $7.5 MILLION MOSQUE IN THE AFFLUENT REGENTS PARK.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/18 3:01









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
Go to China, to Africa. That is where you will see the harvest, that is where you will see power, & that is where you will see miracles- the sick are healed, the blind can see, and the dead are being resurrected.


...and the believers are being baptised in water in obedience to Christ's command.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

The miracles that I note as taking place in China and Africa have nothing to do with water baptism, and everything to do with "The Promise of the Father", The Baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes UPON the believer.


I have been water baptized twice. That baptism was nothing more than a memorial, and outward witness, a statement to the world that I belong to Jesus Christ. There is no supernatural power in water baptism. Water is a "picture" a "type" of the Holy Spirit that was established by God. All of "washings" in water that the Priest experienced for over 1500 years that took place at the laver in Tabernacle and the Temple were nothing more than a picture of Christs baptism at the Jordan River. Christ's water baptism was a fullfillment of this picture [to "fulfill all righteousness- Matt 3:15], of this type of "sanctification" that only pointed to him. Similarily, just like the brass serpent that Moses raised in the wilderness. Those that beleived God looked up to the brass serpent (representing the Messiah on the Cross, with the sin of mankind upon him) and God healed them. The brass serpent itself had nothing to do with their salvation, but their belief in God did. Later, Hezekiah had to destroy the brass serpent because the Israelites were worshipping it.

My pupose on this thread of baptism has been to focus on the Promise of the father, that happens when:

1. We ask God for this Promise

2. Others, that have already received this baptism, lay hands on us and lead us into this baptism, that provides power to the believer to witness to the lost, to speak in tongues, and to have a closer walk with the LORD.

The miracles that I note as taking place in China and Africa have nothing to do with water baptism, and everything to do with "The Promise of the Father", The Baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes UPON the believer.

God bless,

Stever

P.S. I do encourage new beleivers to be water baptised, but I instruct them that the "Promise of the Father" is not an automatic occurence of water baptism, as so many in the Western Church seem to believe.

 2005/7/18 3:12
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

stever
Why are you so insistent upon making this an either/or issue? You do not need to dilute the testimony of water baptism in order to maximize its testimony to Spirit baptism. The two are so plainly set out as separate experiences in the Acts that this is impossible to deny.

If, as you seem to want to make out, Christ's references to baptism in the post-resurrection period are references to Spirit baptism is can only mean that the Church, and Peter, Philip, Paul and others, completely misunderstood or misrepresented His commission. As far as I am aware no branch of Christendom or Christianity ever suggested that water baptism is made unnecessary by Spirit-baptism until George Fox in the 17th century. I have the greatest respect for George Fox and William Booth but I consider them to have been mistaken on this issue and in their similar position that true 'communion' in Spirit with God and man makes the 'breaking of bread' superfluous. Is this your position, btw, do you also dismiss 'breaking of bread' as obsolete.

The heart of this, as has been stated, is that the apostles were Christ's agents in water baptism, but Christ is His own agent in Spirit-baptism. The command 'to be baptised' has no meaning unless it can be obeyed but how would you obey a 'command' to be 'baptised in Spirit'? Is would be like saying 'Be born again'; how would you 'do' that? The command to 'baptise' is a command to 'do' something. The promise of the Holy Spirit included a command to 'do' nothing, but to wait until they were endued with power from on high.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/18 3:39Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
the "Promise of the Father" is not an automatic occurence of water baptism, as so many in the Western Church seem to believe.

In almost 50 years experience in the 'western church' I have never met anyone who believed this.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/18 3:42Profile





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